08:15 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder
08:16 -!- cherryh.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ (public irc logs available on website) ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ Slash'EM Extended 2.0.1 is available for play
08:16 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ
08:16 <K2> beholder updated
08:16 <Beholder> K2: Message from Tangles at 2017-08-05 04:59 EDT: Just pushed a fix for Beholder not logging game events.
08:23 <Beholder> [07nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed ring of teleport control", on T:40243
08:23 <Beholder> [07nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Fem Neu) wished for "blessed fixed platinum yendorian express card", on T:40245
08:23 <Grasshopper> got it this time
08:27 <jonadab> Planning to use wands to supplement the Barbarian's limited spell casting skills?
08:52 <Beholder> [05dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 462 points, T:1088, killed by a bolt of fire
08:57 <Beholder> [05dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 567 points, T:1276, killed by a werejackal
08:57 <Beholder> [05dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 24 points, T:188, killed by a grid bug
09:04 <Beholder> [05dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 956 points, T:1696, killed by a giant bat
09:24 <Beholder> [05dyn] groovejumper (Tou Hum Fem Neu), 3234 points, T:3422, killed by an acid blob
10:09 <hothraxxa> fiq: Fuddmeister casts a spell!  The magic missile hits Fuddmeister!  Fuddmeister is caught in the magical blast!  Fuddmeister resists the magical blast!  You are caught in the magical blast!
10:09 <hothraxxa> this still doesn't seem right
10:09 <jonadab> He's hitting himself with MM?
10:09 <hothraxxa> i think it was a bounce
10:10 <FIQ> hothraxxa: was it cast directly into a wall
10:10 <FIQ> or an "unlucky" 180?
10:10 <hothraxxa> i think so
10:11 <hothraxxa> no there was an elemental in front of a wall and he was next to it
10:11 <FIQ> oh
10:11 <FIQ> hm
10:11 <FIQ> I see what is going on but why would it consider that a good idea
10:11 <hothraxxa> exactly
10:11 <FIQ> should only give a neutral score
10:11 <FIQ> i.e. 0
10:11 <hothraxxa> never mind she's killing me
10:12 * FIQ adds a higher penalty for hitting oneself/master
10:12 <hothraxxa> i get hit for ~60 points every time it ends in a magical blast
10:12 <FIQ> !tell K2fiqhack updated
10:12 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
10:12 <hothraxxa> i really hate that magical blast thing. why is it there?
10:12 <FIQ> !tell K2 fiqhack updated
10:12 <Beholder> Will do, FIQ!
10:13 <FIQ> to allow magic missile to deal with reflection+MR users
10:13 <FIQ> should I remove it?
10:13 <hothraxxa> i'd love it if you did but far be it from me to ask you to do so
10:14 <FIQ> hmm
10:14 <jonadab> In general, rays explode when they hit resistant targets.
10:14 <jonadab> This is Wands Balance Patch stuff.
10:14 <jonadab> And yes, it's controversial.
10:14 <FIQ> well I pushed a fix that should make the arch-lich be even more reluctant at hitting itself
10:14 <FIQ> which is what happened here
10:14 <jonadab> Amy of slex fame thinks it is pure evil.
10:14 <hothraxxa> yeah, thanks for that
10:14 <hothraxxa> i stand under amy's banner
10:15 <hothraxxa> it shouldn't happen with misses, as far as i'm concerned
10:15 <FIQ> I find the explosions rather useful, both for and against you
10:15 <FIQ> I like it, but unsure with magic missile *spell*
10:16 <FIQ> on more than one occasion I've abused death field explosions as a means of dealing with Rodney
10:16 <FIQ> since they can't miss
10:16 <hothraxxa> so fuddmeister takes into account the magical blast?
10:17 <FIQ> just checked
10:17 <FIQ> it doesn't
10:17 <FIQ> I should fix that
10:17 <hothraxxa> aha!
10:17 <hothraxxa> that'd probably save me a lot of hp
10:17 <FIQ> at least for magic missile
10:18 <FIQ> spell
10:18 <hothraxxa> i wonder what she'd prefer to mm
10:18 <hothraxxa> probably nothing, at xl32 it's nasty
10:18 <jonadab> hothraxxa: Teach her force bolt?
10:18 <hothraxxa> i'm thinking she'd still use mm
10:18 <jonadab> Oh, right, MM scales, right.
10:18 <FIQ> monster spell use doesn't care about power level of a spell as long as it's useful
10:18 <hothraxxa> besides, i don't have that spellbook afaik
10:19 <FIQ> if you teach it force bolt
10:19 <FIQ> it will use that alongside mm
10:19 <FIQ> because I didn't make monsters consider damage scaling
10:19 <FIQ> well, I should clarify
10:19 <FIQ> it will use force bolt assuming target doesn't have MR
10:19 <FIQ> or magic missile
10:19 <FIQ> at random
10:19 <hothraxxa> booo
10:20 <FIQ> unless magic missile can hit the target more than once
10:20 <FIQ> in which case it will prefer MM
10:20 <FIQ> if the target has MR
10:20 <FIQ> it will use magic missile only
10:20 <FIQ> since expert MM pierces MR
10:21 <hothraxxa> of course an arch lich is expert, right?
10:21 <FIQ> yes
10:21 <FIQ> hothraxxa: what if I made the magic missile spell never explode
10:21 <FIQ> but still be able to pierce reflection at skilled, MR at expert
10:21 <hothraxxa> that would certainly be better in my cureent circumstances
10:22 <hothraxxa> however it's about what you think the game should do
10:22 <FIQ> it is a change I have considered myself
10:22 <FIQ> before you had a lich pet
10:22 <FIQ> mostly to make the spell more reliable and to don't have players accidentally harm peacefuls
10:22 <hothraxxa> i would like to keep this pet and if i had mr, we wouldn't be talking about this
10:23 <hothraxxa> oh, the accidental harm thing is a big consideration
10:23 <FIQ> you should consider learning that arch-lich extra healing btw if you can
10:23 <FIQ> it will use it intelligently on itself and you
10:23 <hothraxxa> hey, good idea
10:23 <hothraxxa> i know. if only i had that book
10:23 <aosdict> I knew Fuddmeister could be useful!
10:24 <hothraxxa> i should take her up to my stash and review what books i have
10:24 <hothraxxa> last time i was there i hadn't realized i could give her spellbooks
10:24 <hothraxxa> if she reads it, that reduces the use count, right?
10:25 <hothraxxa> or increments, i should say
10:27 <hothraxxa> well fuck
10:27 <hothraxxa> she killed me with a bounce
10:27 <Grasshopper> yasd
10:28 <hothraxxa> yeah. i should have saved and waited for k2 to push the fix
10:28 <Grasshopper> RIP hothraxxa :C
10:28 <Beholder> [10fh] hothraxxa (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 62608 points, T:19039, killed by a magical blast
10:29 <FIQ> hothraxxa: pushed a fix
10:29 <FIQ> ayy
10:29 <hothraxxa> that's some bones
10:29 <FIQ> sorry about that
10:29 <hothraxxa> not your fault, really
10:29 <FIQ> https://git.io/v7wpW
10:30 <FIQ> hothraxxa: and yeah, monster reads consume uses like usual
10:30 <jonadab> That could be scary bones, actually.  But also rewarding, potentially.
10:31 <FIQ> an arch-lich whose only spell is magic missile is no jioke
10:31 <FIQ> *joke
10:31 <FIQ> it will spam it
10:31 <FIQ> at least hothraxxa didn't also teach it haste self and drain life
10:32 <FIQ> and slow monster
10:34 <Grasshopper> could potentially become multi-bones, given time :D
10:36 <hothraxxa> ya think?
10:36 <hothraxxa> somebody (maybe me) will hate me for this 
10:37 <FIQ> Heh
10:37 <FIQ> I think former pets can turn peaceful
10:37 <hothraxxa> most players reaching that level will probably go down in one or two shots
10:37 <FIQ> so you might be lucky
10:37 <FIQ> bonus points if there's a rogue player monster on the level
10:37 <hothraxxa> you descend the stairs, arch lich ports to you, dywypi
10:38 <Grasshopper> I've had exactly that death
10:38 <hothraxxa> i don't believe you
10:38 <Grasshopper> no turns to respond, just dead
10:38 <FIQ> well you didn't teach it detect monsters
10:38 <hothraxxa> you've never died, i heard it on the internets
10:38 <FIQ> so it needs to find you first
10:38 <FIQ> before it can port to you
10:39 <Grasshopper> hothraxxa, I've never died: I just smell that way
10:39 <hothraxxa> i'll be wielding excalibur
10:40 <hothraxxa> well mtf got the first rogue ascension anyway. i play way too slowly
10:40 <Grasshopper> be the first to ascend all roles!
10:40 <hothraxxa> hah
10:40 <hothraxxa> i might try caveperson since it's so popular
10:41 <Grasshopper> cavs are much more powerful in vanilla 3.6+
10:41 <hothraxxa> orly? multi-shot rocks?
10:41 <Grasshopper> the new multishot rules really favour them (spears, and boomerangs)
10:41 <Grasshopper> wish up some silver spears, enchant and go
10:42 <Grasshopper> throw up to 4 at a time
10:42 <hothraxxa> how many spears can you scuccessfully wish for at once?
10:42 <Grasshopper> playing a cav, I'll spend maybe 3 wishes just on spears
10:43 <hothraxxa> ok so 2-3 or if i'm grasshoppe, 5
10:43 <Grasshopper> (wish for 3 each time, average result 7)
10:43 <hothraxxa> spears still heavy?
10:43 <Grasshopper> or 2 wishes for 5 spears sounds good enough
10:43 <FIQ> spears? why?
10:43 <Grasshopper> they are heavy, that is the downside
10:43 <FIQ> just because they have slightly more base damage
10:43 <FIQ> doesn't make them amazing
10:43 <Grasshopper> multshot
10:43 <FIQ> they're still heavy
10:44 <Grasshopper> multishot
10:44 <FIQ> still less useful than arrow multishot
10:44 <FIQ> or daggers
10:44 <Grasshopper> sure, they are cavs not rangers or rogues
10:44 <hothraxxa> spears weigh 30
10:45 <FIQ> hothraxxa: you should try fh ranger :P
10:45 <FIQ> with new autoswap
10:45 <hothraxxa> ah yes, autoswap is nice
10:45 <hothraxxa> major reason why my rangers hardly use a bow
10:45 <hothraxxa> no autoswap
10:47 <hothraxxa> wow, no one has fh arc? seems odd
10:47 <aosdict> major problem with rangers in general
10:47 <aosdict> many of them just end up swinging stormbringer at everything
10:47 <hothraxxa> autoswap makes a bow a feasible weapon
10:48 <hothraxxa> it's a great feature
10:48 <aosdict> I applaud autoswap
10:49 <Grasshopper> playing rangers, I only really use a bow when playing elf ranger 
10:49 <Grasshopper> otherwise darts are quite an attractive option
10:50 <Grasshopper> (needing no launcher and you can add strength bonus)
10:50 <aosdict> the quest artifact is a bow, you would think more people would use it
10:50 <FIQ> Grasshopper: fiqhack autoswap will automatically swap your welded weapon with a bow or melee weapon (based on offhand) if you whack stuff in melee or 'f'ire appropriate ammo
10:50 <Grasshopper> yeah, that is the shame
10:50 <aosdict> it needs some sort of damage bonus, I think
10:51 <Grasshopper> FIQ, that makes sense even if it is making things a bit easier for an already easy role
10:51 <FIQ> it is purely interface considering nethack4 since previously makes weapon swapping a free action
10:51 <Grasshopper> although I don't know about FH rangers, they might be hard for all I know
10:51 <FIQ> fh rangers might be easier due to obj properties
10:52 <FIQ> thirsty arrows
10:52 <FIQ> etc
10:52 <Grasshopper> gosh yes
10:52 <FIQ> never played ranger seriously, can't stand arrow micromanagement
10:52 <hothraxxa> no fh ranger ascension
10:52 <Grasshopper> oddly, the issue I always have with rangers is their low HP
10:52 <FIQ> maybe I should look into making autoexplore reroute to projectiles you've thrown/etc
10:52 <jonadab> Grasshopper: Play Fourk Cav.  You can dual-wield slings for double multishot.
10:53 <Grasshopper> jonadab, that is ridiculous!
10:53 <Grasshopper> how do you load stones?
10:53 <FIQ> with your mouth
10:53 <Grasshopper> with your feet!
10:53 <FIQ> no you silly, feet are for walking and getting hurt by lego
10:54 <FIQ> YASI: lego trap. If you aren't wearing metal boots, you take damage
10:54 <Grasshopper> ouch!
10:54 <jonadab> Grasshopper: There's a lot of ridiculous stuff about Cav as a role.
10:54 <Grasshopper> I meant ridiculous in a positive way :D sounds like fun
10:55 <FIQ> maybe I should implement returning as a property
10:56 <FIQ> for proejctiles
10:56 <jonadab> There's a thought.
10:56 <Grasshopper> returning lego? That would make cleanup easy!
10:56 <FIQ> haha
10:56 <jonadab> So you could find a stack of returning darts?
10:56 <FIQ> jonadab: yeah
10:56 <jonadab> Or arrows?
10:56 <jonadab> And boomerangs would just naturally always have it, of course.
10:57 <Grasshopper> boomerangs don't return when they hit things
10:57 <jonadab> Or, heh, only 999 times out of a thousand.  Because what do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back?  A stick.
10:57 <jonadab> Grasshopper: Oh, good point.
10:57 <FIQ> Grasshopper: I've considered making boomerangs work like mjollnir
10:57 <FIQ> when thrown
10:57 <FIQ> to make them not useless
10:57 <Grasshopper> FIQ, keep that for an artifact boomerang
10:57 <FIQ> why
10:57 <FIQ> current boomerangs are worthless
10:58 <FIQ> 36x makes them even worse
10:58 <Grasshopper> because boomerangs don't come back when they hit things
10:58 <aosdict> Boomerangs should continue flying in their path when they hit things, for the comedic value
10:58 <jonadab> I definitely think boomerangs should stack and multi-fire.
10:58 <hothraxxa> oh! oh!
10:58 <Grasshopper> 36X makes boomerangs better
10:58 <Grasshopper> as you can multi them
10:58 <jonadab> Ah.
10:58 <jonadab> That's a good change.
10:58 <FIQ> by making their flight path unpredictable and throwing them even more of a crapshoot?
10:58 <jonadab> That less so.
10:59 <Grasshopper> their flight path is very predictable
10:59 <FIQ> including being able to rotate *up* or *down*
10:59 <FIQ> um.. no
10:59 <Grasshopper> they go anticlockwise
10:59 <FIQ> they fly either clockwise
10:59 <FIQ> counter-clockwise
10:59 <FIQ> or up
10:59 <FIQ> or down
10:59 <Grasshopper> their is no random about it
10:59 <FIQ> at random
10:59 <Grasshopper> no up or down
10:59 <FIQ> Grasshopper: 36x changed it...
10:59 <Grasshopper> I know
10:59 <jonadab> Doesn't it alternate?
10:59 <jonadab> Left/right/left/right?
10:59 <Grasshopper> I've played several cavs with boomerangs on 36x
11:00 <Grasshopper> there is no alternation
11:00 <Grasshopper> wher do you get all thi sfrom anyway???
11:00 <hothraxxa> i have heard this song before
11:00 <jonadab> Probably from not understanding changelogs.
11:00 <jonadab> How does it _actually_ work?
11:00 <jonadab> Err, s/changelogs/git logs/
11:00 <Grasshopper> they go anticlockwise
11:00 <FIQ> was going to consult wiki
11:01 <FIQ> but it's still on 3.4.3
11:01 <FIQ> however it does have this on top
11:01 <Grasshopper> the wiki shows the flight path going clockwise
11:01 <FIQ> A user has suggested improving this page or section as follows:
11:01 <FIQ> "Boomerangs in 3.6 seem to fly counterclockwise and stop whenever they hit or miss a monster."
11:01 <Grasshopper> so that is wrong
11:01 <Grasshopper> until I changed the wiki, it said that the boomerang would continue hitting multiple opponents
11:01 <Grasshopper> which was always wrong
11:02 <FIQ> lol
11:02 <jonadab> What if boomerangs could bounce off walls and keep going?
11:02 <Grasshopper> FIQ, that user is right
11:02 <FIQ> ok so I consulted the changelog
11:02 <FIQ> it says it was changed
11:02 <FIQ> to always be counterclockwise
11:02 <FIQ> it appears that I am incorrect
11:03 <FIQ> well to be exact
11:03 <FIQ> it says
11:03 <FIQ> right-handed boomerang throw travels counterclockwise
11:03 <Grasshopper> yes
11:03 <FIQ> which is rather vague
11:03 <jonadab> Oh, that _is_ vague.
11:03 <jonadab> No wonder we got confused.
11:03 <FIQ> but I assume they mean "always counterclockwise" because Grasshopper played 36x more than I did
11:04 <lorimer> it's likely more a reference to "IRL, a right-handed boomerang throw will spin counterclockwise"
11:04 <Grasshopper> FIQ, well I am from the southern hemisphere
11:04 <Grasshopper> ;-D
11:04 <lorimer> s/spin/travel/
11:04 <FIQ> haha
11:04 <FIQ> maybe it's clockwise in the northen hemisphere
11:04 <Grasshopper> lol
11:04 <aosdict> boomerang coriolis effects
11:05 <lorimer> and so the boomerangs in 3.6 were switched to match what actually happens. and of course the changelog is written in mumble :D
11:05 <Grasshopper> if you visualise yourself throwing a boomerang right-handed, you'll see that it will travel counter-clockwise
11:05 <jonadab> YASI: NetHack should look up your geolocation and make it make a difference whether you're in the northern or southern hemisphere.
11:05 <FIQ> lorimer: to be fair
11:05 <FIQ> this is probably one of the worst changelog entries I've seen
11:05 <FIQ> it is very confusing
11:05 <FIQ> as to what it is trying to say
11:05 <FIQ> it implies people can play left-handed in nethack
11:05 <FIQ> or similar
11:06 <jonadab> FIQ: Confusing is probably better than clear and actively misleading, though.
11:06 <FIQ> I suppose
11:06 <jonadab> But yeah.
11:08 <Grasshopper> IRL, hunting boomerangs don't actually return at all
11:08 <Grasshopper> only the "toy" ones come back to you
11:08 <jonadab> Wait, boomerangs are actually used IRL?
11:09 <Grasshopper> If you have a look at a hunting boomerang and pick one up (they are quite heavy), you'll be glad it won't come back to you
11:10 <FIQ> heh
11:11 <hothraxxa> actually
11:11 <Beholder> [07nd] simplejim (Rog Orc Fem Cha), 538 points, T:2288, killed by a small mimic
11:11 <hothraxxa> a boomerang thrown right handed will curve clockwise if thrown backhanded
11:11 <hothraxxa> no different than a frisbee
11:12 * hothraxxa had thrown both
11:12 <hothraxxa> has
11:12 <jonadab> A frisbee curves depending on how you tilt it when you throw.
11:12 <Grasshopper> ah, so you should have a choice?
11:12 <lorimer> FIQ: yeah, definitely. it needed the prefix "IRL" to properly indicate where it was coming from.
11:12 <jonadab> Grasshopper: What would the UI for that be?
11:12 <hothraxxa> jonadab: trying throwing one backhanded with a tilt
11:13 <hothraxxa> well, backhanded has a natural tilt. it would be hard to reverse it
11:14 <Grasshopper> jonadab, not sure it could be done neatly
11:14 <jonadab> hothraxxa: NOt sure about backhand, but I've played frisbee golf casually, I can _frequently_ (not absolutely reliably, because I'm unathletic) get it to curve in _approximately_ the direction I want.  Usually not as sharp a curve or a sharper curve than I want, but.
11:14 <jonadab> The principle is straightforward, it's just the manual dexterity I don't have.
11:14 <hothraxxa> jonadab: yes, you can do that forehanded. not backhanded. bh is a much easier way to get the clockwise curve
11:15 <Grasshopper> the less-neat way to do it could be to have it as an option - but then you'd have to pull up options everytime you want to throw it differently
11:15 <FIQ> just have an option that makes the game guess
11:15 <FIQ> depending on targets
11:16 <hothraxxa> anyway, a frisbee is simply eaier to handle than a boomerang, but the flight principles are exactly the same
11:16 <lorimer> have it determine its curve and if there's only one way to have it complete the curve, throw it that way.  otherwise throw counterclockwise
11:17 <lorimer> so if you're standing next to a wall and throw a boomerang, it assumes the PC is not an idiot and doesn't just bash the wall with it
11:17 <lorimer> *unless INT<=5, in which case always throw into the wall
11:17 <FIQ> haha
11:18 <lorimer> i always wanted to figure out how to have Torg-level INT effects in NH, but there just weren't many places where it would be either beneficial or at best neutral
11:18 <jonadab> What will it do in the middle of the Big Room, then, with targets on both paths?
11:18 <jonadab> Just default to counterclockwise?
11:18 <lorimer> jonadab: Counterclockwise
11:18 <lorimer> the idea is just that if CC would clearly smack a wall, throw the other way
11:18 <Grasshopper> have the game auto-predict possible targets for you, in must the same way as it does for polearms and lances in 36+
11:18 <lorimer> so the curve effect happens if at all possible
11:19 <Grasshopper> press "tab" to swap possible flight patterns
11:59 <K2> hi
11:59 <Beholder> Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought
11:59 <Beholder> K2: Message from FIQ at 2017-08-05 10:12 EDT: fiqhack updated
11:59 <K2> ok
11:59 <K2> FIQhack updated
12:01 <Beholder> [07nd] Grasshopper (Bar Hum Fem Neu) had Magicbane bestowed upon her by Crom, on T:41614