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01:09 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Ardub (Val Cen Fem Neu) wished for "blessed greased fixed +2 dragonhide cloak of displacement", on T:28623
02:43 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 1578 points, T:2235, killed by a bolt of lightning
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03:02 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:31704
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03:21 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) killed Baalzebub, on T:31860
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04:12 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) wished for "blessed fireproof +2 oilskin fedora named Alhoonbane", on T:31965
04:18 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3547
04:23 <mobileuser> "It looks as if the invisible Nazgul is yelling at you."
04:23 <mobileuser> heheheh
04:23 <mobileuser> drum applied, take that you bastard
04:42 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 2788 points, T:5796, zombified by a gnoll witherling
04:45 <Umbire> Tactical deafening is something more variants should take advantage of
04:45 <Umbire> Which is a roundabout way of saying "voice/sonic attacks should be a bigger thing"
04:46 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) killed Orcus, on T:32090
04:48 <arahael> Umbire: Tactical deafening, you say? :)
04:50 <Umbire> Yes
05:06 <arahael> Good thing I already know sign language, then.
05:07 <amateurhour> you can speak to signs? do they speak back..?
05:08 <arahael> My preferred language is Auslan. :)
05:08 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 1585 points, T:1840, killed by a large mimic, while praying
05:21 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) destroyed the invisible AntiVirus' ghost, the former Conjurer, on T:2336
05:24 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) destroyed VaderFLAG's ghost, the former Wanderer, on T:2396
05:29 <arahael> Was a triple-bones.
05:45 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed +2 stone gauntlets of power", on T:4499
06:07 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +2 crystal plate mail of venom named Umbire", on T:4705
06:36 <VaderFLAG> Oh you found my poison spikes bones!
06:36 <arahael> VaderFLAG: And with THREE, count them, THREE magic lamps!
06:37 <arahael> VaderFLAG: It was a triple-bones, too.
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07:16 <Graznop> If an energy vortex (chamelion) engulfs you and you have a wand of cancellation in open inventory, is the e cancelled?
07:17 <Graznop> s/e/:/
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07:22 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Tou Gno Fem Neu) had a spear entrusted to her by The Lady, on T:19823
07:23 <Graznop> Grrr... when all you want is an indication you can pray safely...
07:23 <rebatela> hehe right?
07:24 <rebatela> i have a bit of a sacrificing left to do (had to kill quest leader to unlock bell) 
07:26 <rebatela> dammit
07:26 <rebatela> i got clovers finally and prayed but he was displeased and i lost all my protection
07:26 <rebatela> that is some BS
07:26 <Graznop> Clovers when displeased?
07:26 <rebatela> i had already mollified, then I got partially absolved a bunch, then I got clovers, then I prayed and displeased? how can that be right 
07:27 <Graznop> BS indeed
07:27 <rebatela> BUG
07:27 <rebatela> i was just about to go kill rodney too 
07:27 <rebatela> went from -51 to -41
07:28 <rebatela> really sucks because i haven't been picking up gold 
07:28 <Graznop> Ouch
07:28 <rebatela> i can go back to ludios but that will only get me 4 pts or so because i'm xl 30 
07:28 <Graznop> What about level draining b4?
07:28 <rebatela> i guess i can go back to gehennom and get all the gold 
07:28 <rebatela> yeah I could do that for sure 
07:29 <Graznop> Is that valid in Evil?
07:29 <rebatela> don't know drain life unfortunately
07:29 <rebatela> yeah that works in evil i'm pretty sure 
07:29 <rebatela> could do it with wraiths or whtaever
07:30 <rebatela> you know what I could do too... I could kill this temple priest even though he's aligned since god is already mad and I alrady lost protection? Then donate to moloch? 
07:30 <rebatela> get my gold back? I wonder if there's any other penalty 
07:31 <rebatela> oh i left gold in ice queen branch too 
07:31 <rebatela> maybe that and ludios and chests in vecna will be enough to buy 9 even at lvl 30... 
07:32 <Graznop> All you need is a vamp or wraith?
07:35 <Graznop> I sincerely retract any misgivings I may have had about the spear My Lady. Turns out a blessed weapon is useful against the Temple ghost... 
07:35 <rebatela> sometimes it works out...
07:35 <rebatela> usually the stuff is enchanted too 
07:42 <rebatela> just scrounged up 72k gold 
07:42 <NetSysFire> ruined the yendorian economy?
07:42 <rebatela> so let's see that's 6 points 
07:43 <rebatela> i thought clovers meant good to pray, but now that I think of it I guess it just means it improved your luck. It could still be bad 
07:44 <rebatela> i did kill the grand master after all 
07:44 <rebatela> and I have the freaking eye of the overworld I should have checked if i can pray 
07:46 <Graznop> 72K - pocket change! Is AC better than -41 advised?
07:46 <rebatela> what happens if I donate to the priest in the ice queen realm and then kill them ? Is it just a lightning strike like killing minetown priest? I've never killed the priest in votd but it's the same idea
07:47 <VaderFLAG> -41 is definitely adequate 
07:47 <rebatela> i mean, -41 is probably fine but lower the better for sure 
07:47 <VaderFLAG> You won't lose protection for killing the moloch priest
07:47 <rebatela> thank you 
07:47 <VaderFLAG> Just the standard murder if you're not chaotic
07:47 <rebatela> yep. that's what I'll do then. donate to him, get my gold back, donate to mine and I should be back where i was 
07:51 <rebatela> actually i should probably kill my own priest while i have no divine protection and get that gold too 
07:51 <rebatela> then donate it all in votd 
07:52 <rebatela> maybe i'll get lucky and get a couple more points 
07:53 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] post163 (Wiz Gno Fem Cha), 407 points, T:1425, killed by a land mine
07:53 <rebatela> priest keeps getting in the way of my altar camping anyway
07:55 <rebatela> graznop: playing tourist? Nice! 
07:56 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) averted death (killed by a spotted jelly), on T:12501
07:56 <arahael> I forgot I had only 51 HP.
07:57 <Graznop> rebatela: Yes. I am a tourist in a strange world. Getting stitched up by vanilla threats though...
07:57 <arahael> Well, now at least I have a spare amulet slot.
07:57 <rebatela> i think pyec and magic harp will be my first wishes next game... 
07:58 <Graznop> This game just about getting started now, so will probs die soon!
07:59 <rebatela> evil is super fun
08:00 <arahael> rebatela: It really is.
08:01 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) completed Sokoban, acquiring an amulet of reflection, on T:12662
08:01 <arahael> A circular amulet of reflection - perfect.
08:04 <aosdict> it's a miniature copy of the shield of reflection worn around the neck
08:06 <arahael> Found free action!
08:06 <NetSysFire> a single scale of a silver dragon: amulet of reflection
08:06 <NetSysFire> gratz
08:09 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Tou Gno Fem Neu) had a pair of gloves called boxing 50 entrusted to her by The Lady, on T:20180
08:10 <rebatela> YES I GOT CHARM MONSTER
08:10 <rebatela> finally
08:10 <arahael> Free action is engagement. :(
08:10 <rebatela> 78k freaking turns later 
08:14 <Graznop> If gloves price ID as magical and are not fumbling, dex or power - are they protection?
08:17 <rebatela> protection self id when you put them on 
08:17 <NetSysFire> +0 dex does not self id
08:18 <Graznop> Hmmm. Puzzling
08:18 <amateurhour> why's that bad arahael?
08:21 <arahael> *two* disenchanters.
08:21 <arahael> amateurhour: It's bad because leps and &'s steal it
08:22 <amateurhour> it's made of gold?
08:22 <amateurhour> isn't the foocubus thing ring of adornment and not engagement?
08:23 <amateurhour> in dnh engagement ring protects you from seduction attacks so it can be essential for some demon lords there
08:23 <amateurhour> but idk of anything evilhack specific
08:23 <K2> leps only steal objects made of gold
08:23 <VaderFLAG> The magical gloves could just have an object property
08:24 <mobileuser> engagement is gold in evilhack
08:24 <VaderFLAG> thought not sure if that influences price
08:24 <K2> and i havent altered seduction attack mechanics vs vanilla
08:25 <arahael> staff of holiness!?
08:25 <K2> mobileuser yup sure is, I remember now
08:25 <K2> i changed a lot of base materials for rings so elves wouldnt get the shaft (iron allergy)
08:26 <arahael> What's this?
08:26 <arahael> > a cursed thoroughly burnt +0 staff of holiness (40 aum)
08:26 <K2> its a staff of holiness
08:26 <arahael> 🤦
08:26 <K2> looks like its cursed
08:26 <K2> maybe burnt a lil bit
08:27 <K2> :D
08:27 <arahael> You are super helpful, my good friend, K2.
08:27 <K2> I try
08:27 <rebatela> LOL
08:27 <K2> look here - https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/EvilHack#Weapons
08:28 <rebatela> those staffs are awesome arahael 
08:28 <rebatela> especially if you don't have robe 
08:28 <rebatela> (you have to wield tho) 
08:28 <arahael> Ah, thanks again for that K2.
08:28 <arahael> rebatela: ANd yeah. I've been collecting them, somewhat disorganised, though.
08:28 <arahael> They're heavy.
08:28 <K2> o/
08:30 <arahael> rebatela: I do have a robe, though - but robe + staff, wow, I'd imagine. :)
08:31 <rebatela> yeah. they are great for giants... There'd be no casting polymorph etc. without 
08:33 <rebatela> k2: are you saying free action can longer be iron ? That was my big fear when I was playing elf 
08:33 <rebatela> *no long
08:33 <rebatela> er
08:34 <K2> free action base material is steel
08:35 <K2> but ring appearances are random every game
08:35 <K2> there's still one ring that is iron base material
08:35 <K2> fire res
08:43 <Graznop> Understand the source of my confusion - plain iron gauntlets have a base cost of 50. Evil.
08:48 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 39611 points, T:16433, killed by a wraith, while sleeping
08:48 <arahael> Well, that was... Sad...
08:48 <arahael> Was doing sooooooo well.
08:48 <arahael> Found the portal to the quest. Wasn't going to do it, just wanted a peek...
08:49 <arahael> Stepped on the portal...  And then I was basically dead.
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08:49 <NetSysFire> rip
08:49 <arahael> Seriously.
08:49 <arahael> There was a fell beast, and it had a rider.
08:50 <arahael> So, one step off the portal...  And it screamed.
08:50 <arahael> Didn't get a chance to step back on.
08:51 <arahael> !lastgame
08:51 <Hecubus> arahael: [hdf-eu] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/S/SeamusMcRed/evilhack/dumplog/1632251717.evil.html :: [hdf-us] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/p/post163/evilhack/dumplog/1632397687.evil.html :: [hdf-au] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/A/Arahael/evilhack/dumplog/1632388144.evil.html
08:52 <arahael> Wow, and the fell beast didn't even make it in the game log, how pathetic. :(
08:52 <NetSysFire> @e?fell beast
08:52 <Hecubus> fell beast (D) | Lvl: 14 | Diff: 16 | Spd: 12 | Res: cold sleep poison | Confers: nothing | MR: 20 | Generates: special | AC: -2 | Attacks: 4d5 claw physical, 4d5 claw physical, 2d6 bite physical | Alignment: -17 | Flags: carnivore, flies, thick hide, seeinvis, poisonous, nopoly
08:52 <NetSysFire> oh do nazgul spawn with that?
08:53 <arahael> It was riding on something.
08:53 <K2> yeah all nazgul spawn riding a fell beast
08:53 <K2> fell beast dont spawn on their own, you'll only ever see them with nazgul rider
08:53 <NetSysFire> K2 did you read the lotr books or just watched the movies?
08:53 <K2> both
08:53 <arahael> K2: I don't think I've seen them before in the wizard quest home level - have I just been lucky or did you tweak it?
08:54 <K2> lucky
08:54 <arahael> Wow.
08:54 <mobileuser> It's a W
08:55 <NetSysFire> YANI: ringwraiths/nazgul should drop a ring
08:55 <krm26> They do sometimes, cursed invis
08:55 <krm26> Or at least they used to
08:55 <K2> they always do
08:55 <K2> nazgul always spawn with a ring of invis
08:55 <arahael> Well, I guess that means I should never ever step on the portal if I don't have a unicorn horn. As soon as I found the quest level, I should've just *wished* up a unicorn horn.
08:55 <K2> and they'll wear it
08:56 <NetSysFire> K2: a friend recently invited me over to watch the whole extended triology in 4k
08:56 <NetSysFire> it was glorious
08:56 <K2> awesome
08:56 <krm26> I mean, doing almost anything in the game is a risk without some way to handle stun, paralysis, etc -- in evil these days I seem to get stunlocked by Minetown gnomish wizards fairly regularly :-)
08:56 <mobileuser> arahael do you know you can activate a portal by sitting on it?
08:56 <arahael> mobileuser: I had no idea!
08:57 <mobileuser> quickest way to escape
08:57 <arahael> mobileuser: That would've saved my game, even. :(  As soon as I saw the fell beast, I thought: "Crap. I need to get out!"
08:57 <mobileuser> I am an expert in running away ;-)
08:57 <arahael> I'm an expert at dying!
08:57 <krm26> Hmm, never done Ixoth in evil before. Am I gonna rue the day going in with no special options, just a +5 Dirge?
08:57 <K2> NetSysFire I have all of the LotR and the hobbit movies extended versions, but not 4k
08:57 <arahael> I sometimes even die multiple times!
08:58 <NetSysFire> K2: it recently got remastered in 4k
08:58 <K2> but honestly, most people cant tell the difference between 1080p and 4k unless the TV they are watching it on is huge
08:58 <mobileuser> Ixoth can hit hard and curse your invent
08:59 <rebatela> even in vanilla they drop cursed invisible ring 
08:59 <K2> i have a 4k set but it's only 49", its difficult for me to tell the difference between 1080p and 4k content
08:59 <arahael> K2: THe size *and* distance is the key.
08:59 <K2> yup
08:59 <K2> we sit about 11-12 feet away from the TV
08:59 <rebatela> yeah sitting on the portal is a pro move (i also learned from mobileuser)
09:00 <K2> and the way my entertainment center is setup, I cant go larger than 50"
09:00 <K2> which is fine, it doesnt need to be any bigger
09:01 <arahael> 50" is still huge.  Hell, 49" is basically identical.
09:01 <K2> 48-50" sets are considered small nowadays heh
09:01 <rebatela> i'm babysitting my friend's 70". It's in my bedroom lol 
09:01 <NetSysFire> but whats considered big now?
09:01 <K2> for some reason 55" became the low end for large sets
09:02 <K2> NetSysFire 65-70" and up
09:02 <arahael> K2: It's weird.
09:02 <rebatela> the one thing about the size though is that they seem to make the bigger sets with better components 
09:02 <arahael> We don't bother buying TV's, though, we just watch on our laptops.
09:02 <arahael> Even if we're watching the same laptop... It's frankly all you need.
09:03 <K2> i will say this. my current TV uses OLED. never going back to conventional LED/LCD
09:03 <rebatela> yeah oled is the bomb 
09:03 <K2> OLED looks *amazing*
09:03 <rebatela> i have an LG phone (they invented the tech) and it is oled 
09:03 <rebatela> but there's no backlight like with lcd so you can true blacks etc. 
09:04 <K2> yup
09:05 <rebatela> it'd be cool if you could cast reflection/haste at monsters (pets) 
09:06 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) had Trollsbane bestowed upon him by Chih Sung-tzu, on T:80001
09:06 <NetSysFire> i shall retrieve my 3,4" looking glass
09:07 <K2> i need to fix stone to flesh cast at monsters today
09:08 <rebatela> so tell me about these antimatter vortices... and whatever the other new thing is neolethid?(?sp?)
09:08 <rebatela> i'm getting ready to make this run 
09:08 <krm26> neollithid? Some stone age dude?
09:08 <K2> neothelid
09:08 <krm26> neo-ilithid? A brand new mind flayer?
09:09 <krm26> neo-neolithid-ilithid?
09:09 <NetSysFire> no
09:09 <rebatela> neo the lid 
09:09 <NetSysFire> its a monster mindflayer tadpole worm
09:09 <K2> https://github.com/k21971/EvilHack/search?q=neothelid&type=commits
09:09 <NetSysFire> its a nightmare
09:09 <K2> read the 2nd one first
09:09 <K2> then the first one
09:09 <rebatela> ty
09:09 <NetSysFire> and K2 didnt even make it genocidable
09:10 <K2> they've been in since april, i dont think anyone has encountered one yet
09:10 <K2> NetSysFire they are rare
09:10 <K2> they dont spawn normally
09:10 <NetSysFire> yeah yeah but they are evül
09:10 <K2> good
09:10 <K2> *working as intended*
09:10 <rebatela> oh ok so i won't see one this game 
09:11 <rebatela> what does an antimatter vortex do ? 
09:11 <K2> what level are you on
09:11 <rebatela> i've cleared everything. just rodney left 
09:11 <K2> https://github.com/k21971/EvilHack/commit/ce0a2c33015f139a5905203ec0134a363487a0d1
09:11 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) killed the invisible Ixoth, on T:30976
09:11 <NetSysFire> @e?antimatter vortex
09:11 <Hecubus> No such monster.
09:11 <krm26> Well that was anticlimactic
09:12 <K2> @u?anti-matter vortex
09:12 <Hecubus> No such monster.
09:12 <NetSysFire> @e?matter
09:12 <Hecubus> matter ~3~ kitten (f) | Lvl: 2 | Diff: 3 | Spd: 18 | Res: none | Confers: nothing | MR: 0 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 6 | Attacks: 1d6 bite physical | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, carnivore, infravisible
09:12 <NetSysFire> lol
09:12 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:30978
09:12 <K2> adeon hasnt updated pinobot for 0.7.1
09:13 <K2> and antimatter vortex was the only new monster
09:13 <arahael> Well, I'm off to bed. G'night.  Such an amazing game. Such a tragic end.
09:13 <K2> i wont bug him about it until 0.8.x
09:13 <K2> gnite arahael
09:13 <rebatela> nite arahael
09:13 * NetSysFire gives arahael an amulet of restful sleep
09:14 * arahael needs two of them.
09:14 <NetSysFire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anzaNj0L4Y4 nethack death by kitten
09:14 <NetSysFire> YASI: swarm of kittens
09:15 <rebatela> my cat brought in a live chipmunk yesterday. let it go, and then got bored. It's in here somewhere! SO annoying 
09:16 <arahael> rebatela: It didn't break the spine?  They often do that so they can't get away too easily.
09:16 <rebatela> better than a rat/mouse i suppose, but not by much 
09:16 <arahael> Juuuuust enough so that they can "escape", but not really.
09:16 <arahael> Cats are evil.
09:16 <rebatela> nah it seemed unharmed. it took off and i've seen it a few times 
09:16 <rebatela> supposedly they do it (keep them live) to try to teach US how to hunt... it's what they do with their young 
09:16 <rebatela> cat thinks i'm stupid 
09:17 <arahael> Heh.
09:17 <NetSysFire> thats very cat like
09:17 <arahael> Anyway, G'night. Amulet's kicking in.
09:17 <rebatela> night
09:17 <nabru> 'night
09:18 <krm26> WTF, why the hell does he want my magic mirror? I'm chaotic, what possible conduct could I have violated?
09:18 <krm26> I'm going to say no and he's going to instagib me isn't he
09:18 <rebatela> has anyone NOT had to fight the quest leader yet ? 
09:19 <krm26> If you say no you can't just run away, right? Gotta kill him?
09:19 <nabru> I haven't even made it to the quest in eh :P
09:19 <krm26> @e?king arthur
09:19 <Hecubus> King Arthur (@) | Lvl: 20 | Diff: 23 | Spd: 15 | Res: sleep poison petrification | Confers: nothing | MR: 90 | Generates: unique | AC: 0 | Attacks: 4d10 weapon physical, 4d10 weapon physical | Alignment: 20 | Flags: omnivore, nopoly, infravisible
09:19 <rebatela> well, what I do is not even talk to them until I do want to fight... 
09:19 <krm26> I would have avoided it but I was sure I was in the clear
09:19 <rebatela> then i go back and kill 
09:20 <krm26> So I'm not prepared at all
09:20 <krm26> But fuck it
09:20 <rebatela> well you can give it to him and go back and kill 
09:20 <krm26> Oh, HE has Excalibur
09:21 <krm26> Eat my jumps, cya
09:21 <rebatela> yeah.. just remember before you do invocation 
09:22 <NetSysFire> or kill the wizard
09:22 <rebatela> and then it takes quite a bit of sacrificiing to mollify afterwards... 
09:22 <NetSysFire> you dont want to have the wizard going after you while you still have to fetch the bell
09:22 <rebatela> I just went through that and ended up losing my protection praying too early. It really messes up your alignment 
09:22 <rebatela> netsysfire: yeah. that's basically what I meant 
09:23 <rebatela> and I don't think HooA works after you kill quest leader no matter what you do (not sure about this ) 
09:31 <mobileuser> krm26 talking is enough
09:31 <mobileuser> you can refuse to give the quest artifact and then run away
09:31 <mobileuser> the bell will already have been blessed by him
09:32 <krm26> ? Really?
09:32 <mobileuser> yeah
09:35 <amateurhour> huh
09:36 <mobileuser> btw attacking fleeing monsters probably abuses your alignment, even as chaotic knight
09:36 <krm26> Really? No warning messages
09:36 <mobileuser> yes I find that surprising as well...
09:37 <mobileuser> I think VaderFLAG told me that
09:37 <NetSysFire> paranoid_caitiff
09:38 <krm26> Well blrugh
09:39 <rebatela> dammit I finally altar camp for 6 healing potions to alchemize and they all exploded 
09:39 <NetSysFire> ouch
09:39 <rebatela> they are smoky so i wasted them earlier trying to get a wish 
09:39 <rebatela> that's why i don't have full healing 
09:40 <rebatela> oh sweet just got 4 healings of a player monster tho 
09:41 <mobileuser> hmm a lance can even hit monsters that are hiding behind other monsters
09:41 <mobileuser> what would Umbire say...
09:41 <mobileuser> fucked?
09:41 <amateurhour> epic
09:42 <mobileuser> that's what you say :b 
09:42 <amateurhour> move over boulder forts, I'm slapping demogorgon with my lance from behind jellies
09:43 <mobileuser> \o/
09:44 <amateurhour> heh I just remembered the greatest y ani ever posted
09:44 <amateurhour> centaur knights were cool and all, but
09:44 <amateurhour> what if we could wield zombie arms as weapons
09:44 <mobileuser> lol
09:44 <amateurhour> and the zombie arm has a weapon equipped itself
09:45 <amateurhour> I'm still laughing at that idea
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10:06 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) destroyed the invisible Vlad the Impaler, on T:33106
10:06 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:33108
10:10 <krm26> Weird -- will sacrifice not repair my standing while my antagonized quest leader lives? Feeling of inadequacy doesn't seem to be offering away
10:11 <krm26> There we go. As always, whining for the win
10:11 <amateurhour> \o/
10:14 <K2> you need bigger sacrifices
10:14 <K2> ^ vanilla
10:15 <K2> as far as alignment abuse goes, you cant reverse that
10:19 <K2> think of it this way: career criminal, steals, assaults, murders. goes to jail for his crimes. gets out, finds god, becomes a priest and does good for people the rest of his life <--- improves alignment score. but that doesnt wipe away all the bad deeds they did before <--- alignment abuse score, cant be changed
10:19 <K2> he's still a convicted murderer, no matter how good he became afterwards
10:20 <krm26> I'm just salty that as a chaotic knight who is supposed to make a same-race sacrifice for an artifact weapon apparently attacking peaceful monsters violates conduct
10:21 <K2> it prob shouldnt (at all or as much)
10:21 <K2> i thought that was something i addressed way back?
10:21 <K2> i'll check
10:21 <krm26> I got no warning messages or caitiff anything but really toileted my conduct
10:21 <amateurhour> do we have mystery alignment loss again
10:22 <K2> krm26 its possible you did something else maybe?
10:22 <amateurhour> did you heal any pets? is that still a thing?
10:22 <K2> i'll check either way to make sure
10:22 <krm26> Nope
10:22 <K2> amateurhour i changed the healing pets behavior
10:22 <K2> that was goofy
10:23 <amateurhour> did you kill any quest leaders? from wishes etc
10:24 <amateurhour> I think that might have been changed already, but worth checking
10:24 <krm26> Nope
10:24 <krm26> Just mowed through some peaceful and fleeing monsters
10:24 <krm26> Figured it was expected
10:25 <K2> well peacefuls will do it
10:25 <K2> chaotic != evil
10:25 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) killed the Abominable Snowman, on T:33792
10:25 <K2> even though there are some shady areas
10:26 <K2> makes me wonder if dark knight should be unaligned instead of chaotic
10:26 <amateurhour> fleeing wouldn't do it, the caitiff stuff specifically checks alignment
10:27 <amateurhour> but even chaotics get penalty for killing always peacefuls or whatever
10:27 <VaderFLAG> I just realized that chaotic knights don't get the "you caitiff" message when attacking fleeing monsters
10:27 <VaderFLAG> Either they shouldn't get the penalty or they should get the message
10:27 <amateurhour> they don't get the penalty
10:27 <krm26> My own fault, after I saw no caitiff message from fleeing my brain just told me killing peaceful homunculi for sleep resistance was kosher
10:27 <amateurhour> hmmm
10:27 <krm26> It seemed rational given the Dirge-acquisition requirement
10:28 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) changed form for the first time, becoming a red dragon, on T:33826
10:28 <VaderFLAG> I'll have to pay more close attention next time, not sure what coulda done it
10:29 <krm26> Oooookay WTF, I guess magic mirror of merlin is no longer magic resistance in evilhack?
10:29 <krm26> Dammit
10:29 <VaderFLAG> correct
10:29 <krm26> FGFDGFDGFD
10:29 <VaderFLAG> Hey, feel good you didn't just get deathtouched!
10:29 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) killed the invisible Asmodeus, on T:33437
10:30 <krm26> So now I'm a red dragon freezing to death on the ice plane
10:30 <VaderFLAG> haha
10:30 <VaderFLAG> MELT EVERYTHING
10:31 <K2> yeah attacking a fleeing monster, they are still hostile. no alignment penalty for chaotic knights doing that
10:31 <K2> killing peacefuls is always bad
10:31 <K2> unless you're an infidel
10:32 <krm26> When you lay an egg as a dragon, how many turns does it take? At 4 hp losing 1 per turn
10:33 <K2> not sure
10:34 <krm26> I'll save before I crash the game by dying while laying an egg
10:35 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:82396
10:36 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:82414
10:37 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) performed the invocation, on T:82423
10:42 <mobileuser> woo rebatela! go go go!
10:45 <NetSysFire> lol krm26
10:45 <NetSysFire> i thought the devteam thinks of everything
10:48 <krm26> Ugggh I hate no Ludios
10:49 <krm26> This run has ONE empty vault on level 22
10:49 <rebatela> yeah it sucks that the mirror doesn't give mr anymore 
10:50 <krm26> I guess reflection is better than a sharp stick in the eye
10:50 <mobileuser> half spell damage was added
10:50 <rebatela> and it makes sense for a mirror, but it was a nice way for lawful to wish for slotless mr 
10:51 <krm26> Does anyone ever really have a problem with spell damage past the midgame?
10:51 <mobileuser> it makes a difference on astral? with the magic missiles?
10:52 <krm26> I guess maybe
10:57 <rebatela> Dirge is pretty badass, huh?  I need to try chaotic knight 
10:59 <mobileuser> And the lance. I am going to try polearms with other roles.
10:59 <krm26> Not a fan compared to Excalibur...guess the acid damage is nice, but I miss early easy drain resistance
10:59 <mobileuser> Being able to pound is dope.
10:59 <mobileuser> ^ finally remembered what Umbire would say
11:00 <rebatela> what about a pound of dope?!?
11:00 <mobileuser> that's fucked! 
11:00 <rebatela> oh i misread 
11:00 <mobileuser> :b 
11:00 <mobileuser> haha!
11:01 -!- Umbire has joined #evilhack
11:02 <amateurhour> shit's cracked
11:02 <amateurhour> yo
11:02 <mobileuser> yeah
11:02 <Umbire> 'lo amateurhour 
11:03 <amateurhour> heya
11:13 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) wished for "blessed amulet of life saving", on T:99002
11:22 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 2602 points, T:2432, killed by a wand
11:59 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the illithid high priest of Moloch, on T:82809
12:00 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) acquired the Amulet of Yendor, on T:82817
12:02 -!- lacca[m] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:04 -!- lacca[m] has joined #evilhack
12:04 <Graznop> Are you meant to get a choice of which armor to enchant when reading blessed enchant armor?
12:05 <Umbire> Yes
12:05 <rebatela> yeah that's new 
12:05 <Umbire> That's for any EA scroll I think
12:05 <Graznop> I didn't get a choice
12:07 <rebatela> yeah, I remember it didn't work for me at first. I wasn't sure why, and then I got worried that i'd vaporize my armor so I started taking them off. But then I thought I did something wrong because it's been working correctly this whole game
12:07 <krm26> I have had it not work with a non-blessed scroll
12:08 <krm26> Although maybe it was when I was confused for fooproofing? Wasn't attentive enough
12:08 -!- ChrisANG has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:08 <Graznop> First scroll I needed to be confused for, so took everything off. All as expected.
12:09 <Graznop> So got dressed again and read another scroll, expecting to have a choice for the first time ever...
12:09 <Graznop> ... but didn't get one. cheatHack
12:11 <amateurhour> if you haven't identified it yet it doesn't let you pick
12:11 <krm26> Ahhhh
12:11 <amateurhour> as in if you haven't identified scroll of enchant armour
12:12 <krm26> But also weird, is there any other item that behaves differently when unidentified?
12:12 <amateurhour> in my PR for vanilla to add it it just lets you pick right away, but to get it in evilhack it still needed a bit of evil :P
12:12 <Graznop> Ah OK. That would explain it. Thanks
12:13 <krm26> I must say that I think the change is OK for vanilla but I definitely wouldn't have put it in evilhack
12:13 <krm26> The dangers of having to be undressed are an important evil ingredient
12:15 <rebatela> seriously
12:15 <amateurhour> I think I'd prefer more monsters with de-equipping attacks than having to derobe to enchant armour
12:15 <rebatela> It's a huge huge nerf imo 
12:16 <rebatela> I actually don't like it for evil either 
12:16 <amateurhour> nerf or buff?
12:16 <rebatela> buff
12:16 <rebatela> whatever
12:16 <krm26> nerf to EVIL
12:16 <rebatela> nerfs the game 
12:16 <rebatela> because monster cancel your armor and you want to reenchant and that used to involve dangerous turns of disrobing 
12:17 * amateurhour shrugs
12:17 <rebatela> i'm just surprised he added it 
12:17 <rebatela> it's a great idea ! and I love being able to choose with trained repair armor 
12:17 <krm26> Being nerfed = being made easier (i.e. gun -> nerf gun)
12:17 <rebatela> so convenient 
12:21 <krm26> Ugh, what a run -- complete to castle with no knock, wand, or tonal instrument. Guess I have to bell it
12:34 -!- ChrisANG has joined #evilhack
12:35 <rebatela> man, I put Eyes Of Overworld in my bag because I don't want rodney to steal, but I guess I should stay blinded now for beholders
12:37 <Graznop> At what level should you start to worry about beholders?
12:37 <rebatela> come to think of it i have instrinsic stoning resistance so it's not a huge deal i guess 
12:38 <rebatela> ummmm I'd say midgameish graznop? 
12:38 <Graznop> Thanks rebatela. I guess I'm winging it on dlvl25 then...
12:39 <rebatela> just blind yourself as soon as you see one or if you see a 5 with warning that stays a 5 when u blind yourself i think 
12:40 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] sluggoman (Wiz Hum Mal Neu) averted death (killed by a blue dragon), on T:99215
12:40 <rebatela> they're not a problem if you towel up and just kill (same with magic eyes) 
12:40 <Graznop> If only I had warning!
12:41 <rebatela> the magic 8 ball is a source if you kill oracl e
12:41 <rebatela> i believe beholders usually start out asleep so you will see it and can blind yourself usually 
12:41 <Umbire> 4/5 times they do
12:42 <rebatela> bouquet died to one last night really far into the game :( 
12:43 <rebatela> should be some sweet bones in statue form for whoever gets there 
12:43 <Graznop> Hmmm. I feel the Oracle's days are numbered. Thanks
12:44 <VaderFLAG> Yeah, warning is not optional in evilhack
12:44 <krm26> Few things are
12:44 <Umbire> everything's optional if you just don't die
12:44 <Umbire> 4Head
12:45 <VaderFLAG> Vanilla needs to revamp the warning system now that it's numeric and make it go 1-9
12:49 <Graznop> Eek. An alhoon! Time to run
12:50 <K2> this is so odd
12:50 <K2> never thought I'd see players complain about a QoL feature being added
12:50 <K2> first paranoid water/lava, now scrolls of enchant armor
12:50 * K2 pulls out the nerf bat again
12:50 <K2> sorry amateurhour...
12:51 * K2 starts swinging
12:51 <K2> :P
12:52 <rebatela> lol 
12:53 <rebatela> well it makes things a LOT easier, which kind of goes against the whole 'evil' thing 
12:54 <krm26> Improvements to poor UI = always good, even in a "tough" flavor of the game
12:54 <rebatela> like VaderFLAG was on Astral and surrounded by stuff and had his DSM turned back into scales and was able to rememdy it in one turn without disrobing in the middle of the mob. That's more than QoL. I'm not complaining! Like i said, I'm just surprised 
12:54 <krm26> Improvements to mechanics are not always as clearcut
12:55 <krm26> So the paranoid water *I* think is unequivocally good
12:55 <rebatela> bah
12:55 <rebatela> what's the point of even having water in the mines if you can't fall in? It's just decoration if it asks you 
12:56 <krm26> But the scroll change is almost, like, something you should have to go to a bunch of work for a special artifact version of the scroll to do. It is mechanically superior
12:56 <Umbire> A decoration that's... still full of piranhas and jellyfish
12:56 <krm26> Yes, what *is* the point of having water in the mines :-)
12:56 <rebatela> i'm not turning it on. And I took a dip this game and lost all my scrolls. I had my bag polymorphed after that anyway so it's not like it mattered lol 
12:56 <Umbire> which're still early-game threats
12:56 <krm26> But it is a non-diggable barrier with deadlies in it too, and that sinks things you kill over it
12:56 <rebatela> because it's supposed to be a hazard 
12:56 <rebatela> at least I thought it was 
12:57 <krm26> Well then why show traps once they are discovered? Use your own memory to recall where they are
12:57 <krm26> They are supposed to be a hazard :-)
12:57 <rebatela> you can still step on traps 
12:57 <Umbire> ^logical conclusion
12:57 <rebatela> it's not xnh 
12:57 <Umbire> It doesn't have to be
12:57 <rebatela> that's not a good analogy at all 
12:58 <Umbire> well of course it isn't, traps are meant to be hazards
12:58 <rebatela> people want to play fast and not fat finger. You're supposed to find a balance
12:58 <rebatela> if you don't want to fall in water/lava, don't play faster than you're able to 
12:58 <aosdict> don't speak for what "people" want out of the game, everyone wants something different
12:58 <Umbire> ^
12:58 <krm26> Nethack's UI makes it VERY easy to move into a square unintentionally when you're doing things quickly in a danger-free area -- when a weird prompt or message out of nowhere interferes in a command sequence
12:58 <rebatela> i'm speaking for myself
12:58 <Umbire> also if people did that then would it not matter if they had it on
12:59 <rebatela> but i'm right. The only reason anyone falls in is because they are playing too fast 
12:59 <krm26> Running through the same empty water level 20 times shouldn't be something you have to pay critical attention to every step for (anyway, I don't think it adds anything worthwhile to the game)
12:59 <Umbire> as we know, typos only ever happen when people are moving fast
12:59 <Umbire> there is no other possibility
12:59 <aosdict> not unless you consider hitting the wrong key by accident "too fast" because you don't hunt and peck the keys at the rate of one every five seconds
12:59 <krm26> We all know there are sections of the game we're careful in and then there is the time we run through some lame level to get back to an altar or something
12:59 <rebatela> if you played slow enough you would never make a typo 
13:00 <aosdict> that is not true
13:00 <Umbire> absolutely the opposite of the truth
13:00 <aosdict> people can have disorders that make their fingers tremble
13:00 <aosdict> let's not punish them
13:00 <krm26> If I played that slow all the time I'd stop playing because of boredom. And I accept the occasional bobble-death or inattention death, that is part of it
13:00 <NetSysFire> aosdict: yeah or just lag
13:00 <rebatela> right, so you find a balance. Paranoid allows people to play carelessly
13:00 <Umbire> even before getting into conditions you can just... miss a key, not like you have to be trying
13:00 <NetSysFire> parkinsons is a thing after all
13:01 <Umbire> "allows people to play carelessly" 
13:01 <rebatela> it does... You don't have to worry about falling in the water
13:01 <krm26> But Levels interwoven with half-water seem unnecessarily harsh. (Although I should say I don't feel THAT strongly about paranoid water, I like the change, but don't think it is a mandatory UI improvement)
13:01 <Umbire> there's 100 things that punish careless movement, evilhack having 99 isn't a sign of the apocalypse
13:01 <rebatela> you can get much faster realtimes because of it
13:01 <Umbire> 1) how
13:01 <Umbire> 2) ...and?
13:02 <aosdict> yes, it removes the care you have to take about bumbling into terrain hazards. this is a Good Thing, because then you can focus your attention on actual strategy
13:02 <rebatela> don't speak for everyone aosdict
13:02 <aosdict> "making sure I don't typo" is not a fun gameplay experience for me
13:02 <rebatela> I can focus my attenmtion?
13:02 <rebatela> don't speak for me
13:02 <krm26> I think we all know we're each speaking for ourself
13:02 <rebatela> ;)
13:02 <NetSysFire> but evilhack is supposed to be evil!111
13:02 <Umbire> the difference is other people have actually been on the record as saying what he's just said
13:03 <Umbire> Hell I p. much said the same thing when he first added
13:03 <rebatela> I don't see why there shouldn't be some physical ability involved in a game where falling in the water has ALWAYS been a hazard until people started adding paranoid water to variants
13:03 <rebatela> it's not strictly a strategy game 
13:03 <rebatela> typos should be part of it 
13:03 <rebatela> IMO
13:03 <rebatela> because that's how it's always been
13:03 <Umbire> paranoid_water does not eliminate typos and appealing to tradition is... lol
13:04 <Umbire> they're still present in about 50 different areas of the game
13:04 <rebatela> it allows you to not have to be careful around water and you can play much much faster
13:04 <rebatela> lava too apparently
13:04 <krm26> rebatela: Do you advocate for removing all prompts? Like, quitting the game, for example
13:04 <aosdict> you're really overstating the amount of water there is in the game
13:04 <amateurhour> EPI: add a captcha every turn you're in a square next to water/lava/etc, if you typo it you fall in, this adds a fun sense of realism to the game
13:04 <Umbire> ^
13:04 <krm26> Just avoid miskeying!
13:04 <Umbire> It's categorically """faster""" when you're not blanking your inventory every time
13:04 <krm26> Clearly there is a spectrum, we're just quibbling over where it is. I think water is on the bubble
13:05 <aosdict> the Plane of Water is on the bubbles?
13:05 <Umbire> if you get your inventory polymorphed/set on fire/etc. you can still easily get fucked
13:05 <krm26> It is nice for there to be options for things on the bubble, and that is exactly what K2 did, so I think it was perfectly implemented
13:05 <Umbire> so in practice it's really not that much more "speed"
13:06 <Umbire> (also why are faster realtimes being framed as a Bad Thing)
13:06 <Graznop> With paranoid water I wouldn't have got the sense of achievement I got from finally learning to avoid the pools in the tourist quest
13:06 <rebatela> you don't have to anymore 
13:06 <rebatela> completely changes the game
13:07 <krm26> But my feeling is that targeted enchant is kinda close to targeted U uncurse -- a substantial enhancement that is not really necessary (but I'd be fine with if it was from some uber-scroll or uber-spell or something you had to unlock if you wanted it)
13:07 <Umbire> "completely" is a massive overstatement
13:07 <krm26> Well you can always move with _ to never fall in water by miskeying. It is just slow and awkward and less fun
13:07 <krm26> 100% successful tho
13:07 <K2> you can still kill your boots or even die with paranoid water/lava on by the way
13:07 <K2> any of you test it?
13:08 <aosdict> krm26: Interested, what would you think of the targeted enchant in xnethack, where it can't be used to restore DSM because there's no "armor reverts to scales" thing?
13:08 <Umbire> shallow water still rusts metal boots for example
13:08 <K2> paranoid water/lava doesnt take shallow water or sewage into consideration
13:08 <Umbire> there's also the classic "being disrobed over water/lava" deal
13:08 <K2> only lava, pools and moats
13:09 <krm26> aosdict: My formal opinion is targeted enchant armor, if available, should be gated a la Vecna gating genociding L or an additional artifact scroll item or something
13:09 <krm26> Too much of an improvement for the ordinary blessed scroll of enchant armor
13:09 <krm26> Let alone for uncursed
13:09 <K2> so the enchant armor change - what if you're not allowed to target armor that's covered by other armor
13:09 <NetSysFire> whats the difference between a pool and a moat?
13:09 <Umbire> Evaporation
13:09 <krm26> Algae
13:10 <Umbire> Moats don't evaporate, pools can
13:10 <aosdict> Umbire: it's a bit of a compromise solution that makes no one happy :) people who don't like typo into liquids don't like that there are still bad effects from typoing into liquids, people who do like it are... unhappy that other people can use it even if they don't personally?
13:10 * amateurhour shrugs 
13:10 <Umbire> aosdict: lmfao
13:10 <krm26> K2: I still think that is a little too good, personally
13:10 <rebatela> It's just that do you realize how many people have fallen in deep water and died in nethack over the years? (vanilla) 
13:10 <rebatela> yes, it completely changes the game to now have that not be an issue
13:10 <amateurhour> completely changes the game what
13:10 <Umbire> ...yes. That's the reason it was done in the first place.
13:10 <amateurhour> how often do you typo into water that this changes anything for you rebatela?
13:11 <NetSysFire> easybaby hack
13:11 <K2> amateurhour, rebatela usually plays intoxicated
13:11 <K2> so...
13:11 <rebatela> to make it a game where it babysits you and doesn't let you die if you play carelessly
13:11 <Umbire> again
13:11 <rebatela> not usually
13:11 <aosdict> actually yeah I really don't get rebatela's position here. no one who doesn't like paranoid water has to play with it. so why force everyone who does like paranoid water, to not have it available?
13:11 <Umbire> this is NetHack.
13:11 <krm26> Not to be rude, but hahahaha, evilhack babysits cuz of paranoid water?
13:11 <Umbire> There are literally thousands of ways to die playing carelessly.
13:11 <Umbire> EvilHack adds ten thousand more.
13:11 <rebatela> well, why not make it so you can go back to a different save point if you like?
13:11 <K2> so remember, paranoid water/lava is OFF by default
13:11 <amateurhour> there's paranoid water now, maybe I can finally ascend :P
13:11 <rebatela> no permadeath option
13:12 <rebatela> people who want permadeath can keep it on 
13:12 <Umbire> Why is the one thing removed out of all of these thousands of ways to die suddenly an issue?
13:12 <aosdict> rebatela: stop making slippery slope arguments. no one is proposing this stuff.
13:12 <K2> i really should make it a conduct in next version
13:12 <K2> hah
13:12 <krm26> Yeah, too many logical fallacies sliding into this convo
13:12 <rebatela> umbire: because it's a common horrible death that even experienced players have done since the very first days of the game
13:12 <rebatela> it's frustrating as hell
13:12 <rebatela> it's one of the reasons the game appealed to me 
13:12 <rebatela> when I was a CHILD
13:12 <K2> appeals
13:13 <K2> not appealed
13:13 <amateurhour> full support for paranoid_die :^)
13:13 <rebatela> and no i'm not always intoxicated 
13:13 <K2> just dont turn it on
13:13 <amateurhour> just kidding!
13:13 <Umbire> And they took steps to make it less frustrating, like has been done with various other aspects of the game
13:13 <krm26> I want a y/n prompt when an incubus wants me to take my ring of lev off over lava!
13:13 <NetSysFire> K2 didnt you want to make paranoid_swim a conduct
13:13 <Umbire> This shouldn't be any different just because of some misguided nostalgia
13:14 <Umbire> It's one thing if you personally dislike it but the constant inflation into something more than it actually is every time this comes up is exhausting because it's literally just a flat circle
13:14 <krm26> I view not walking into water as akin to not attacking your pet when you move into them
13:14 <aosdict> the game had plenty of annoying things in it in 3.4.3 (not NAO version), and it was widely liked at the time. should we bring all those annoying things back because people in the mid 2000s played with them?
13:14 <rebatela> it was SUPPOSED to be frustrating. There could have always been paranoid water in vanilla. It's not like no one had thought of it, or they didn't know how to code it. It was intentional and it was never added 
13:14 <K2> NetSysFire i did/do, just forgot for 0.7.1
13:14 <krm26> Also try to use in-game logic. Your character can see the water. In front of them. There will be some slight decision making involved in whether or not to walk into it.
13:14 <Umbire> aosdict: by that logic we should also bring back shaped keys
13:14 <aosdict> fallacy of assuming devteam not doing something == devteam intended that thing should never happen
13:14 <K2> and adding a conduct will break saves
13:15 <K2> so i need to wait
13:15 <krm26> Ooooo I miss the crazy key minigame of yore :-)
13:15 <amateurhour> delet auto-open
13:15 <aosdict> devteam never added displacer beasts before. old players never had to deal with displacer beasts, so we should get rid of them now because they were never intended!
13:15 <krm26> I'm surprised there aren't a hundred unused placeholder conducts in the current saves
13:16 <K2> rebatela, just dont turn on paranoid swim. problem solved
13:16 <rebatela> go looked at all the drowning deaths over the years by really good players... It's making a hard game easier and allows one to not have to be careful 
13:16 <rebatela> look*
13:16 <rebatela> everyone typos into water. It sucks 
13:16 <Umbire> the "making the game easier" thing doesn't remotely hold water (ugh)
13:16 <rebatela> get better at the game, don't make it not as hard 
13:16 <amateurhour> drowning... from eel grabs, not from running at water
13:17 <Umbire> ^
13:17 <Umbire> hello???????
13:17 <Hecubus> Hello Umbire, Welcome to #evilhack
13:17 <aosdict> drowning deaths do not result from typoing into water
13:17 <aosdict> all typoing into water gets you is frustrating inventory destruction
13:17 <NetSysFire> lol Umbire
13:17 <rebatela> ok fine and people rage quit
13:17 <rebatela> OR
13:17 <rebatela> you suck it up 
13:17 <rebatela> and go on with your blank scrolls and spelbooks and potions and still ascend
13:17 <rebatela> it builds character
13:17 <krm26> Walking into water is just a slight irritation. Walking into lava, not so much
13:18 <rebatela> lava is just pretty decoration now 
13:18 <Umbire> we have to suck up typo deaths but you can't suck up an optional setting?
13:18 <rebatela> I'm sucking it up. I have the amulet 
13:18 <aosdict> that is the part of this I do. not. get.
13:18 <krm26> But I bet half of the time it happened because someone walked over a square with 2 items in it that made them drop a key
13:18 <aosdict> it. is. optional.
13:18 <Umbire> character for thee but not for me?"
13:18 <rebatela> I'm just playing a different game than you guys now because you can't die in lava by running around not paying attention 
13:19 <Umbire> yes, we can die to beholders instead
13:19 <aosdict> this is a crusade to say "I want EVERYONE to play the game the way I want them to play it!"
13:19 <Umbire> or gelatinous cubes
13:19 <Umbire> or vorpal jabberwocks
13:19 <Umbire> or boojums
13:19 <krm26> I guess you can always fork evilhack over paranoid water
13:19 <Umbire> I could go all day
13:19 <rebatela> maybe we can prompt "The Vorpal Jabberwock is going to behead you. Are you Sure you want to step there?" 
13:20 <NetSysFire> paranoid_die
13:20 <NetSysFire> wizard mode by default when
13:20 <krm26> But all the paranoid-whatever settings are probably worth flipping a bit to show their taint in the records, I mean, why not
13:20 <rebatela> asodict: no I want everyone to play the same hard game that I've been playing for 30+ years 
13:20 <rebatela> you made your variant 
13:20 <aosdict> what if patr said "you know what, I don't play with color, I'm removing color from the game because it's the same hard game I've been playing for 30 years"
13:20 <Umbire> That is literally the same exact sentence twice.
13:20 <amateurhour> gdi haven't we already gone over the slippy slope of paranoid die
13:20 <rebatela> I don't think vanilla (or certianly not evil) should have paranoid water, but whatever. Soft generation i guess 
13:20 <amateurhour> color IS overpowered though aosdict, you don't have to farlook everything
13:20 <Umbire> "soft generation"
13:21 <NetSysFire> lol
13:21 <Umbire> lmfao get over yourself 
13:21 <rebatela> i'm obviously joking 
13:21 <Umbire> "'this is a crusade to say "I want EVERYONE to play the game the way I want them to play it!'" "'no I want everyone to play the same hard game that I've been playing for 30+ years'" so you agree
13:21 <krm26> What's the first year all of us played nethack, just out of curiosity? I think I was playing hack in '84
13:21 <rebatela> same
13:22 <rebatela> played rogue first 
13:22 <Umbire> you just assumed everyone had the same silly views you had on arbitrary """difficulty""" and you keep throwing fits every time someone reminds you that no, everyone does not think like that
13:22 <amateurhour> for me I started playing in 2017
13:22 <rebatela> dude you disagree with everything i say all the time always, so I don't really care 
13:22 <Umbire> 2019
13:23 <rebatela> so maybe your perspective is a little skewed? It's a big change umbire 
13:23 <NetSysFire> i started playing it two years or so ago
13:23 <Graznop> '99. Then a long hiatus until '18
13:23 <rebatela> the game's been around since 84 as mentioned 
13:23 <amateurhour> what's your opinion on auto-unlock?
13:23 <krm26> I mean, vanilla is so much easier than evilhack anyway; presumably anybody who has ascended in evilhack multiple times can guarantee a vanilla ascension barring the infrequent EXTREME bad luck
13:23 <Umbire> and there's been tons of big changes. this one is the dealbreaker because it's """nostalgic""" to you. yet you insist on beating around the bush trying to pretend otherwise more than half the time.
13:24 <krm26> I die more than I need to in evilhack because I'm lazy and distracted but even when I'm really focused I never feel like I'm really in control
13:24 <amateurhour> I suck ass at evilhack, I'm too smooth brained
13:25 <krm26> (I think nethack was released in '86? That's why I specified hack in '84. Bad with dates tho)
13:25 <Umbire> krm26: Exactly, play speed doesn't matter as much as it's being emphasized - a certain level of mistake just outright kills you at any juncture
13:25 <rebatela> yeah i played hack in 85 or so 
13:25 <krm26> NetSysFire: Amazing! I didn't ascend for the first time until almost 2 decades of play (unspoiled tho)
13:25 <Umbire> and there are literally thousands of such mistakes
13:25 <Umbire> be they actual player error or just a situational misread
13:26 <krm26> I tried evilhack unspoiled but K2 broke me in under a year
13:26 <NetSysFire> lol
13:26 <Umbire> 99.9% of which a single toggle has zero impact on
13:26 <NetSysFire> krm26: i almost got to the castle once
13:26 <amateurhour> wow unspoiled ascension? that's epic
13:26 <K2> fun fact - you can still die from lava by accidentially stepping into it with paranoid water/lava turned ON
13:27 <K2> evilhack implentation is not like the others
13:27 <rebatela> if you accidentally type YES?
13:27 <krm26> I made a huge mistake of having an unspoiled ascension after about 20 years of play and when it happened, having nobody around to scream at. Omigod the huge emotional crash
13:27 <K2> no
13:27 <aosdict> and that makes some people very sad K2 :-)
13:27 <K2> :)
13:27 <NetSysFire> K2: so whats different?
13:27 <K2> feast your eyes on the commit - https://github.com/k21971/EvilHack/commit/2c50b94abc23acee84c89d381dad22f02fd6a5e8
13:27 <Umbire> accidentally inputting 'y' has caused a non-zero amount of deaths
13:28 <Umbire> @e?cockatrice
13:28 <Hecubus> cockatrice (c) | Lvl: 5 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 6 | Res: poison petrification | Confers: poison | MR: 30 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 6 | Attacks: 1d3 bite physical, 0d0 touch petrification, 0d0 passive petrification | Alignment: 0 | Flags: genocidable, omnivore, oviparous, touch petrifies, infravisible
13:28 <Umbire> It helps that 'y' is also a direction key
13:29 <krm26> The slight penalty chance when protected by paranoia is a VERY nice part of the change
13:29 <K2> none of you were aware of that?
13:30 <rebatela> while everyone is piling on me, I also don't like the bag of holding explosion change for the same reason. Putting a cancel wand in your bag (from playing too fast and typoing) used to be catastrophic. For years and years and years. Now it's not as bad  
13:30 <rebatela> or not knowing to not put a bag of tricks in 
13:30 <Umbire> someone literally died to a BoHsplosion
13:30 <aosdict> also, fwiw, the interhack principle says if you wanna wrap the game in a UI enhancer that says "The vorpal jabberwock has a 30% of beheading you if you close to melee. Really step there?", then go ahead, do that, it's classifiable as artificial difficulty. At that point, not implementing it is a matter of popularity (very few players would like the annoying prompts)
13:30 <rebatela> well, now you learned and you try not to make that mistake
13:30 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 2916 points, T:3064, killed by a rock gnome, while reading a book
13:30 <Umbire> why learn when you can just spoil yourself
13:30 <K2> rebatela - exploding your BoH in evilhack may not destroy everything, but the phys damage from the explosion was ramped WAY up. AntuVirus actually died to it yesterday
13:30 <rebatela> yeah i saw
13:30 <NetSysFire> "So. Paranoid water/lava, EvilHack style. Bleh."
13:30 <K2> :)
13:31 <rebatela> but that's in vanilla now right ? the bag change?
13:31 <Umbire> It'S nOt As BaD
13:31 <Umbire> yes, and people still ragequit because you can still lose critical items
13:31 <aosdict> rebatela: so wait, you would rather typos give you non-harmful total item destruction than harmful (potentially game-ending) saving 12/13 of your items?
13:31 <K2> i understand where rebatela is coming from
13:31 <Umbire> you're just not de facto ultra-instafucked, 
13:32 <K2> however
13:32 <Umbire> only regular instafucked
13:32 <rebatela> i just think it's unfair to all the thousands of bags that have exploded over the years
13:32 <rebatela> and people don't quit
13:32 <K2> its *optional* and it's *OFF* by default
13:32 <rebatela> they recover
13:32 <amateurhour> unfair to the bags lol
13:32 <aosdict> the bags are data and do not have feelings
13:32 <rebatela> and it feels awesome when you don't quit and still ascencd
13:32 <K2> in some variants, the paranoid water/lava is always on
13:32 <Umbire> you are assigning excessive amounts of sentiment where they do not exist
13:32 <aosdict> you can survive adversity and still ascend WITHOUT artificial difficulty being that adversity
13:33 <rebatela> umbire: you're never going to understand where i'm coming from 
13:33 <rebatela> and you'd argue to be contrarian even if you did 
13:33 <amateurhour> I'd rather there be more challenge in terms of the game content than from typos
13:33 <amateurhour> and evilhack has plenty of challenging content
13:33 <Umbire> ^
13:33 <rebatela> i understand 
13:33 <krm26> From my perspective, there should be an easy "put all the shit into my bag but NOT the shit I have marked as dangerous" method. It isn't about knowing not to put an unidentified wand into your BoH. It is about putting things in and out of your bag 10,000 times and even knowing better you're going to accidentally hit ALL some of the time
13:33 <K2> anyways. the change is in, we'll see how it goes. welcome to the never-ending beta
13:33 <Umbire> literally everyone already knows where you're coming from, understanding the position is why we're arguing against it
13:33 <krm26> That is just pure UI fuckery
13:33 <Umbire> because it's nonsense and we disagree with it
13:33 <rebatela> I firmly believe there should be some physical aspect to the game that keeps you from being able to play careless and faster than you are able
13:34 <rebatela> we can agree to disagree
13:34 <rebatela> it's not nonsense 
13:34 <krm26> I mean, I'm ok with blowing up my bags of holding all the time, I guess. It is worth it to me for fast play. But it doesn't ADD anything to the game
13:34 <K2> rebatela I appreciate your dedication to evilness
13:34 <K2> it warms my evil heart
13:34 <krm26> I've blown up 3 bags of holding this week :-)
13:34 <rebatela> you startred playing the game 2 years ago. So, of course you don't care about a change that makes the 35 year old game easier for you 
13:35 <Umbire> no, I don't care, that's why I make it a habit to try older versions and document the differences
13:35 <Umbire> come off it.
13:35 <aosdict> if you play fast and careless, you're way more likely to die in combat than have your game ruined by a typo
13:35 <Umbire> and if you play slow a single careless typo can still ruin your shit 
13:35 <Umbire> speaking from experience
13:35 <Umbire> :U
13:35 <krm26> (I should say I'm speaking as a -- not to toot my own horn but -- very good player who intentionally plays inattentively a lot of the time because I have other things going on)
13:35 <Umbire> krm26: most people do!
13:36 <Umbire> It's p. common across skill levels
13:36 <Umbire> (almost like it's our point!)
13:37 <krm26> The most important QoL UI change would be: Mark/unmark an item as "never put me in a container".
13:37 <krm26> Even a kludge like nameing an item "X" would do it
13:37 <rebatela> You know it would be beyond fitting if I fall in the lava right now with the AoY... 
13:37 <amateurhour> krm26: in dnh if you have cancellation and boh both formally id'd it prompts
13:38 <Umbire> I personally always try to keep those in a separate sack, and I imagine most people do
13:38 <Umbire> But shit happens and people forgets things
13:38 <rebatela> maybe I should wear lifesaving (you know, what someone might do in the past if they were worried about something like that ) 
13:38 <Umbire> forget*
13:38 <amateurhour> but I prefer your suggestion because you could use it for other situations
13:38 <rebatela> you can still accidentally put that sack in your bag. I think that's what krm did 
13:38 <rebatela> i never keep cancel on me because I know i'll typo it into bag 
13:38 <krm26> Again, this is pure UI skinning, which shouldn't make a lot of people's head explode
13:38 <Umbire> ...so you're saying krm26's idea is a good idea
13:38 <rebatela> huh?
13:39 <aosdict> krm26: right, interhack principle classifies accidental bohsplosion typos as artificial difficulty
13:39 <rebatela> lol 
13:39 <Umbire> you can still accidentally stick a sack with cancellation/charged tricks into holding
13:39 <Umbire> the risk still exists
13:39 <rebatela> right
13:39 <Umbire> you can still lose critical items to a BoHsplosion
13:39 <Umbire> the risk still exists
13:40 <rebatela> you don't lose your wand of wishing (unless it was glass)
13:40 <Umbire> you do.
13:40 <rebatela> it's not nearly the same risk 
13:40 <Umbire> 1/13 chance
13:40 <krm26> Yup. Or, like I would do, is have an oilskin bag with a scroll of scare monster, potion of holy water, blessed uncursed, and wand of cancellation in it, and that oilskin sacked would be marked "dont stick me in anything" :-)
13:40 <rebatela> yes but if you hit insert all it's gonna go in no matter what you label it ;)
13:40 <Umbire> So The Risk Still Exists
13:40 <Umbire> And I'm p. sure that rule only applies for the bag you're stashing into
13:41 <rebatela> no umbire. It's not even close to "THE" risk 
13:41 <aosdict> the risk must be *perfectly* calibrated to the *exact* specifications achieved by old nethack versions
13:41 <rebatela> you don't lose any scrolls or spellbooks. It's not "THE RISK" 
13:41 <aosdict> otherwise it's unacceptable or babying
13:41 <Umbire> yes you do
13:41 <aosdict> why not just play old versions of nethack at this point?
13:41 <Umbire> standard 1/13 chance, BoH explosion near water or lava...
13:41 <aosdict> seems like it would be a happier experience
13:42 <krm26> True, they are all available
13:42 <rebatela> why not play xnh if you want an easy game?
13:42 <rebatela> i mean, you made a variant to address the stuff you think are "interface screws" 
13:42 <rebatela> unnethack etc. 
13:42 <rebatela> why change vanilla?
13:42 <rebatela> and make it easier? 
13:42 <aosdict> if you want the stuff in evilhack, you're gonna have to put up with other players turning on paranoid water. simple as that.
13:42 <krm26> The game can be challenging without a challenging UI
13:42 <Umbire> the dev team takes good ideas from """"""""easier""""""" variants all the time
13:43 <krm26> There are three categories of difficulty: The mechanics, the unfair difficulty of the poor UI, and the totally excellent difficulty of the poor UI we have become nostalgic about
13:43 <Umbire> People already play xnh and enjoy it, and not just for reasons besides arbitrary chest-thumping difficulty fetishes to impress strawmen
13:43 <rebatela> boy that's clever umby
13:43 <aosdict> and no variant dev sets out to make the game easier.
13:43 <rebatela> can't have a discussion without being a dick?
13:43 <Umbire> xnh makes up for the difficulty in several other areas anyway
13:43 <Umbire> lmfao spare me.
13:44 <krm26> Nobody's acrimony is helping anything
13:44 <aosdict> I know you already don't play xnh, so don't complain to me about it being easier. I know it's definitively easier if you treat artificial difficulty as real
13:44 <krm26> After all we can all agree that we're better than people chatting about dwarf fortress :-)
13:44 <rebatela> I don't think being able to play fast without worrying about typos is artificial difficulty
13:44 <aosdict> but the artificial difficulty is, generally, unpopular, and people are not nostalgic for it
13:44 <rebatela> people do race and compete realtime 
13:45 <krm26> If people want to compete realtime they will presumably use the same version & options, so who cares?
13:45 <rebatela> it makes a huge difference if you're worrying about losing all your stuff to an explosion or water and don't have to anymore. 
13:45 <krm26> Seems like a nonissue
13:45 <aosdict> ... when people compete realtime, they're playing the same game with the same options available to everyone. there's no inherent unfairness in this.
13:45 <rebatela> when you look at a scoreboard you'll never know if someone had paranoid water on. THere should be an asterisk 
13:45 <aosdict> no one is going to say "I'll play xnh and you play vanilla and I'll beat you"
13:46 <krm26> I think it is totally reasonable to see paranoid water in the scoreboard
13:46 <Umbire> just like there should've been for HoOas, right?
13:46 <rebatela> there is now, and correct. 
13:46 <Umbire> But then suddenly alignment conversion punishment was a problem with krm26's centaur?
13:46 <Umbire> And it shouldn't have applied to that even though it's the same in principle?
13:47 <rebatela> i saw your thinking on it
13:47 <krm26> To be fair, I can never really be punished enough... We all know what I did
13:47 <rebatela> I do think it's different in reality because he did it by accident (and it was vaderflag )
13:47 <aosdict> krm26: if you want asterisks for paranoid water I want asterisks for autoopen and color and...
13:47 <mobileuser> the check should be for wearing HoOA at ascension
13:47 <Umbire> and people don't typo into water by accident?
13:47 <mobileuser> not different alignment
13:47 <krm26> aosdict: Honestly, having settings and options info in scores is no big deal; the more information, the merrier, I say
13:48 <krm26> I wouldn't consider that stuff "asterisks" necessarily although I see your point and surely some people would
13:48 <Umbire> also don't people personalize their own settings during races, even if it's just cosmetic stuff like curses?
13:48 <krm26> I would assume everyone does?
13:48 <aosdict> also for options which you can change in-game, this is largely pointless.
13:49 <krm26> Well, you can change paranoid water in game, but if it was ever turned on it could "taint" the game for the scoreboard as having used the option
13:49 <mobileuser> speaking purely for myself: the biggest danger for me is forgetting that I no longer have levitation or flying, not typos. So for me, it means a different game, not just a convenience.
13:50 <krm26> Again, if it makes some people happy seeing that info, why should anyone else care? I'm for showing info
13:50 <aosdict> meanwhile, aoei: "you want me to do what?"
13:50 <krm26> Heh
13:50 <Umbire> I like being able to reliably charge wands of wishing
13:51 <Umbire> can't do that in xnh
13:51 <krm26> See, I grew up in an era where we squeezed every last bit -- so I'm of the opinion that whatever anybody wants, you just stick it in, disk is FREE NOW
13:51 <krm26> BTW, is Evilhack now always a 0:1 wand in the castle? (assuming a humanoid didn't blow a wish off it)
13:51 <Umbire> and it's not an optional thing so I gotta adjust and work around it
13:52 <Umbire> I think it's always been 0:x castle wand
13:52 <Umbire> just... yeah, people snatching it
13:52 <K2> krm26, castle wand is 0:1 to 0:3
13:52 <krm26> Ok, I've had had a lot of 0:1 luck then
13:52 <K2> randomly found WoW's are 1:1 to 1:3
13:52 <krm26> That bad karma of mine
13:53 -!- ChrisANG has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
13:53 <rebatela> I've definitely taken off the wrong ring over deep water and drowned 
13:54 <rebatela> as have many many others over the years 
13:54 <krm26> I'm periodically screwed by the shortcut of removing a necklace/ring when you only have one in use
13:54 <rebatela> maybe one day we will get 3 lives like in mario brothers. 
13:55 <krm26> I don't like THAT ui improvement :-)
13:55 <rebatela> Then the game will appeal to more people, right?
13:55 -!- ChrisANG has joined #evilhack
13:55 <krm26> People can already play that game any time they want with explore mode
13:55 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 5331 points, T:3615, zombified by an orc zombie
13:56 <krm26> PET PEEVE: FRIENDLY MONSTERS IN MY STASH
13:56 <rebatela> right... so if someone is constantly falling in water and lava, maybe explore mode is more up their alley 
13:57 <krm26> I want a gong or chime or something I can drop on the ground that drives friendlies away, maybe to a range of 5 or 6 squares
14:00 <amateurhour> krm there's a paranoid setting for single jewellery remove
14:01 <amateurhour> an item to make friendlies go away is an interesting YANI
14:03 <krm26> Really? Will check that setting out
14:03 <krm26> thx
14:04 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 1152 points, T:1314, killed by a wand
14:04 <rebatela> https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/axnaaa/why_we_still_dont_have_paranoid_confirmation_for/
14:04 <rebatela> wait, you mean I'm not the only one with this CRAZY opinion? 
14:04 <rebatela> It's almost as if other people have also been playing the game for a long time and feel this way
14:05 <Umbire> Yeah, a 3yo thread with little interaction is totally indicative
14:05 <rebatela> and if you go back and read rgrn from the last 30 years it's been talked about ad naseum 
14:05 <amateurhour> this is going round in circles again
14:05 <rebatela> no it's not.... Umbire is an expert 
14:06 <Umbire> you don't need to be an expert to recognize circular logic
14:06 <krm26> You've gone from slipper slope to straw man to ad hominem, maybe we should drop the subject for now
14:06 <rebatela> i'm simply pointing out that i'm not insane for feeling this way, and there IS a reason it hasn't existed in vanilla (until now?)
14:06 <rebatela> i'm done 
14:06 <Umbire> the same arguments were made in that same thread
14:06 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) polymorphed her first object, on T:37659
14:07 <Umbire> yeah until you decide you wanna relitigate this 2 weeks later like the last 50 times 
14:07 <Umbire> it's just pattern recognition.
14:09 <aosdict> it's been new information for me in that I didn't previously think rebatela would oppose the paranoid swim PR, because it provides an option defaulting to off and if it's off then there is no behavior change. but now I know that 30 years worth of unchangeable tradition demands it get opposed
14:09 <rebatela> I just don't want to see it changed in vanilla (i'm sure it's too late) since there are variants that offer it
14:09 <Umbire> """unchangeable""" fucking rofl
14:09 <aosdict> why don't we just stop developing nethack. every change you could make indelibly ruins a traditional aspect of the game
14:10 <rebatela> But it's NOT just me who feels this way.. that's why i linked that 
14:10 <rebatela> go search google groups umbire. Other people have played this game since they were little kids and are in their 40s now and also feel this way 
14:10 <Umbire> And?
14:11 <Umbire> You wouldn't even notice if someone used the option unless they said it outright or you were scrubbing through ttys
14:12 <aosdict> this is the part I just don't get... "it ruins MY enjoyment of the game to know OTHER people can turn on an option that makes it more enjoyable for THEM"
14:12 <rebatela> why have permadeath?
14:13 <Umbire> that's a non-sequitur 
14:13 <aosdict> and a slippery slope. again.
14:13 <Umbire> and one you've used like 10 times in this convo alone
14:14 <krm26> Let's go the other way (seriously) -- why prompt for breaking wands?
14:14 <krm26> Are you opposed to that UI portion, rebatela?
14:14 <krm26> That is a much smaller jump then all the way to no permadeath
14:14 <rebatela> it's not a non-sequitur.. why should I care if others can restore from a save? Why should it change my enjoyment of the game?
14:14 <rebatela> it makes ascensions not as hard 
14:14 <aosdict> it's a slippery slope because you're trying to argue against a position no one holds
14:14 <Umbire> ^
14:15 <krm26> If you are serious about engaging on this, I'd like to hear your take on the wand-breaking UI
14:15 <aosdict> no one is proposing "remove permadeath", and if they were, I'd argue against them
14:15 <Umbire> as would I
14:15 <rebatela> well that's the definition of slippery slope. Keep making the game easier 
14:15 <rebatela> so more people will play 
14:15 <rebatela> I get it 
14:15 <K2> rebatela would you feel better if i made paranoid 'swim' a conduct that shows up in the dumplog?
14:15 <rebatela> no, but only because people will cry 
14:16 <krm26> No, "slippery slope" is being used here to label the logical fallacy you keep using, rebatela. It isn't about making the game easier
14:16 <rebatela> where does it end? that's how I know slippery slope to be used 
14:16 <krm26> K2: I think that conduct probably should be in the dumplog, if it was ever turned on during a game
14:16 <Umbire> It doesn't end because it never started to begin with
14:16 <rebatela> ok umbire
14:16 <krm26> rebatela: What are your thoughts on prompting before breaking wands?
14:17 <Umbire> The fallacy also assumes that the game being made easier in some small way is mutually exclusive of it being made harder in other, separate ways
14:17 <K2> krm26 that's what I was thinking. 'hey look, krm26 ascended, and he didnt even turn on paranoid water/lava!'
14:17 <Umbire> we have fucking antimatter vortices in a variant again
14:17 <amateurhour> damn where's my link to the spongebob meme
14:17 <K2> Umbire yay
14:17 <krm26> Yes, probably all the paranoia settings could be dumped like that
14:17 <krm26> No reason not to (especially no reason for ME, since I'm not the one doing the labor :-)
14:18 <aosdict> you better also dump color and all the other interface enhancement options too
14:18 <rebatela> see?
14:18 <Umbire> that's the other thing, there's only one person in this discussion right now even being judgmental about how people choose to play
14:18 <aosdict> gotta show that I'm better than those scrubs that use color
14:18 <rebatela> aosdict thinks every variant should be xnh apparently 
14:18 <aosdict> and there's a strawman.
14:18 <Umbire> <Umbire> The fallacy also assumes that the game being made easier in some small way is mutually exclusive of it being made harder in other, separate ways
14:18 <rebatela> no. He asked me if I wanted it in the dumplog and I said people willc ry 
14:18 <Umbire> Like clockwork
14:18 <amateurhour> can we break this up now, I think we're past the point where any of us can convince eachother
14:18 <rebatela> and here you are complaining 
14:18 <rebatela> like clockwork 
14:19 <rebatela> color lol 
14:19 <Umbire> xnh has paranoid water but it's also keeping up with cutting-edge 3.7 and thus the changes that add difficulty in other areas 
14:19 <rebatela> you don't even play evilhack aosdict. Why would you care about other variants not having the same options as YOUR game ?
14:19 <aosdict> rebatela: I'm not seriously arguing for color to be dumped in the dumplog. it's a protest against dumping paranoid water
14:19 <rebatela> Some people want a harder game
14:19 <krm26> Ok, I'll try for a third and final time, rebatela: What are your thoughts on breaking wands?
14:19 <aosdict> https://hardfought.org/userdata/a/aosdict/evilhack/ ?
14:20 <aosdict> don't straight up lie about my nethack playing lol
14:20 <Umbire> EvilHack's also taken ideas from xnh fairly often, wasn't a problem until now
14:20 <aosdict> also aosdictj/evilhack/
14:20 <Umbire> K2 and aosdict literally played each other's variants during the last Junethack
14:21 <Umbire> I distinctly remember
14:21 <aosdict> Umbire: and vice versa. xnh 7.0 will have vlad's cavern from evilhack
14:21 <aosdict> plus numerous other things
14:21 <Umbire> also you changed the Arc quest completely
14:21 <K2> i havent stolen that yet
14:21 <K2> hahaha
14:21 <aosdict> git log --oneline --grep=EvilHack | wc -l = 52 commits that mention EvilHack
14:21 <Umbire> can't speak to whether or not it's more difficult, though I feel like it probably is
14:22 <mobileuser> and we have aosdict to thank for shocking spheres exploding wands and rings ;-)
14:22 <Umbire> do we?
14:22 <K2> maybe i went overboard on all the QoL stuff i added to 0.7.1
14:22 <aosdict> yes
14:22 <NetSysFire> no
14:22 <aosdict> evil cred B)
14:22 <krm26> The shocking sphere change is eurggh
14:22 <K2> maybe i should revert back to 0.3.2 days
14:22 <Umbire> I always forget which stuff xnh pulls from 3.7 and which stuff originates in it, it tries to keep so close
14:22 <K2> zombies have entered the chat
14:23 <krm26> I really think you should be able to 100% fooproof rings SOMEHOW
14:23 <aosdict> zombies initially came in slicehack
14:23 <aosdict> krm26: you can now in xnh
14:23 <amateurhour> sneaking into xnh and stealing the arc quest could be the arc quest in evilhack
14:23 <Umbire> lol amateurhour 
14:23 <K2> hah
14:23 <aosdict> the dev team's office but it's just my apartment
14:23 <krm26> I like a lot of the crazy-pimp changes in evilhack but think that some of them should have involved bitchy ways to overcome them (like Vecna for genociding L)
14:24 <krm26> --except not with as much extra loot as Vecna's branch :-)
14:24 <rebatela> i don't know why it prompts you to break wand, but it always has as far as I remember 
14:24 <krm26> It always has. I want to know if you think that is a bad UI
14:24 <krm26> If it should be removed so people are more careful at applying things
14:24 <rebatela> I've never thought about it too much... It's the making vanilla easier over the years part I don't like that's all 
14:25 <krm26> To me, that is a lot more analagous to walking into water then being immune to death, the well you keep going to
14:25 <rebatela> although as pointed out, some things have gotten harder (elbereth change which i love) 
14:25 <rebatela> notice a trend? I like that nethack's hard 
14:25 <krm26> Most of vanilla's initial difficulty came from playing unspoiled
14:25 <Umbire> ^
14:25 <krm26> For most people, that ship has long-ago sailed, however
14:25 <rebatela> ^
14:26 <rebatela> I'm just gonna start doing this anytime someone says something to you umbire 
14:26 <rebatela> ^
14:26 <Umbire> tfw not mad
14:26 <rebatela> ^
14:26 <aosdict> ok this is just being petty
14:26 <K2> rebatela - just dont turn on paranoid swim. too easy
14:26 <Umbire> Anyway, that's one of the main reasons I feel it's a decent change. Reduce arbitrary difficulty in spot A, introduce higher quantity and more organic difficulty in spot B
14:26 <rebatela> i'm done, but asodict you and i have discussed this many times. I never have had a problem with yyou 
14:26 <rebatela> it's good debate
14:27 <K2> and then you say 'ok, i wont' and then we're done
14:27 <rebatela> we disagree and always will and it's fine
14:27 <rebatela> no i'm really done
14:27 <Umbire> then why would you lie about him not playing evilhack
14:27 <aosdict> so prompting for breaking a wand is okay because it existed in the 90s, but paranoid swim is not okay because it came into being in 2020
14:27 <K2> Umbire he just said he';s done
14:27 <aosdict> does this break it down nicely?
14:27 <Umbire> it's one thing to have a preference but magnifying it to the point of lying on other people isn't cool
14:27 <aosdict> well, 2021 in evilhack terms
14:28 <aosdict> I guess it came into being whenever acehack or nh4 added it
14:28 <Umbire> Speaking of historical features, still wondering when it was the mysterious force was added
14:29 <Umbire> did I get an answer...
14:29 <Umbire> oh I did, 3.0.0
14:29 <Umbire> Think what I wanted was a source citation so I made a note to check for that later, which... lol
14:34 <Umbire> K2: Actually, question - how would you "evilify" the xnh Arc quest were you to steal it?
14:34 <Umbire> Besides just "more lava", I feel like that's a given somehow :B
14:35 <K2> hmm
14:35 <K2> i'm not sure
14:35 <K2> hadn't really thought about it
14:35 <krm26> I think it would be fun if a random upper or lower filler level in all quests was replaced with a difficult racial quest level
14:35 <amateurhour> are mummies more evil already in evilhack?
14:36 <amateurhour> or is withering similar to xnh
14:36 <krm26> Well, they wither
14:36 <K2> vs vanilla yes, i think they are the same as xnh?
14:36 <Umbire> Yeah, they wither you as in xnh
14:37 <K2> i only played through it once, but it might be fine as-is
14:37 <Umbire> besides maybe level adjustments I think that's about it
14:37 <K2> it was definitely the most challenging bit of my arch asc back in june
14:38 <K2> once i was done with the quest, the remainder of the game was fairly smooth
14:38 <Umbire> Evil has giant anacondas that could potentially spawn I think, that'd be proper nasty
14:38 <K2> yeah
14:38 <Umbire> and generating 1-2 on creation would be pretty on theme
14:39 <Umbire> on level creation*
14:39 <K2> the shield was pretty neat
14:39 <aosdict> the arc quest doesn't have any lava, so adding some would be quite the departure :)
14:39 <K2> but evilhack arch quest artifact is totally different, i wouldnt change it
14:40 <krm26> The arc quest has about 70 too few rolling boulders
14:40 <aosdict> does evilhack tie anything specific to the nemesis being the Minion?
14:40 <krm26> I imagine a sokobanish level except you need to trigger the right rolling boulder traps to fill unflyable holes
14:40 <K2> aosdict something for consideration - in the indiana jones films, there were parts where indy had to cross over a very pit chasm/pit/whatever using his bullwhip. maybe make something similar
14:41 <K2> woe to the archeologist that ditches their whip early
14:41 <aosdict> doesn't slashem have a thing where you can use your bullwhip to jump over a pit
14:41 <K2> *very deep
14:41 <aosdict> but that's any pit
14:41 <K2> these should be special, cant fill with a boulder
14:42 <K2> or like air in vlad's
14:42 <aosdict> not sure how' you'd implement 'very deep pit' without creating a new trap type
14:42 <amateurhour> YASI: when you enter the arc quest it suddenly turns into a 2d side-scroller
14:42 <amateurhour> run from boulders, armed with a whip
14:42 <amateurhour> the mythical variant amateurhack will have this
14:42 <K2> heh
14:43 <aosdict> in xnethack, you could drop vlad air into the lower filler level and it would work to drop you into the goal level if you fell in it
14:43 <krm26> "Please enter the code from winning an emulator game of the 1985 Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom arcade game to continue with your quest."
14:43 <K2> yeah
14:43 <K2> and you need to bullwhip to cross it
14:43 <K2> swing over
14:43 <K2> *need your
14:43 <K2> omg i cant type
14:43 <aosdict> but idk seems kind of mean to just throw that at someone when there's already black ' ' spaces from rock on the level
14:44 <K2> could work in hints
14:44 <K2> its doable
14:44 <K2> food for thought
14:44 <aosdict> did indy have warnings written on the ground about chasms coming up? no
14:45 <Umbire> paranoid_chasm
14:45 <krm26> Uh oh, this better not degenerate into an argument about a paranoid_chasms setting
14:45 <Umbire> krm26: You owe me 2 potions of soda
14:45 <aosdict> in xnethack paranoid_swim already handles air terrain
14:45 <krm26> Umbire beat me with brevity
14:45 <Umbire> :B
14:45 <aosdict> I bet in evilhack it doesn't
14:46 <krm26> Swimming through air? Is this Looney Tunes now?
14:46 <aosdict> can still typo to your doom even with paranoid keep-me-out-of-other-dangerous-fluids :(
14:46 <Umbire> I mean this game is p. Looney Tunes in various ways thinking about it
14:47 <krm26> Looney Tunes level!
14:47 <aosdict> https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/issues/576
14:47 <Umbire> You can get boulders thrown at you and not instantly die
14:47 <krm26> Probably already in slex
14:47 <Umbire> I already imagine cartoon flattening for stuff involving boulders
14:48 <Umbire> Turning kobolds into nice flat meaty wafers
14:49 <Umbire> So yeah, chasms more likely than lava, could get way more creative with rolling boulder traps
14:50 <Umbire> Hell, the trap selection in Evil kinda already makes the base quest harder
14:50 <Umbire> Not much of a leap to lean into the more difficult ones
14:51 <Umbire> Small corridors with beam traps nearby so they reflect constantly
14:51 <krm26> Surprised evil doesn't have a cursing trap
14:51 <krm26> (and hobbit pickpockets should ALWAYS steal your bag if you have one)
14:51 <K2> spear traps are particularly evil
14:51 <Umbire> In fairness once player monsters and higher-level casters start appearing you'll be getting cursed to Gehennom and back anyway
14:51 <Umbire> K2: AND on theme!
14:52 <Umbire> Arcs are a speed role, what better challenge than stabbing them in the leg
14:52 <K2> those come from sporkhack
14:52 <krm26> Some bug should have a stacking wasting illness attack that makes you consume food at 2x the normal rate
14:53 <Umbire> Doesn't even have to be an illness attack per se, just repurpose Famine's nutrition drain
14:53 <Umbire> It's weird seemingly no one's thought to do that with how hunger can be trivialized
14:54 <Umbire> (though Kes probs considered it for all I know)
14:54 <krm26> Always worth taking a second look at underutilized mechanics
14:56 <krm26> I *do* really enjoy leaving corroded items strewn in my wake with Dirge
14:56 <krm26> I think that Dirge should have a 5% per hit chance of its spooky, otherworldly song causing fear in a 1 square radius around me
15:03 <Umbire> I still've yet to get Dirge anywhere
15:03 <Umbire> can't wait
15:03 <krm26> The acid damage is pretty moose. But I miss drain resistance
15:04 <amateurhour> haha I've not heard that expression before, 'pretty moose', what does it mean?
15:04 <K2> seriously
15:04 <krm26> Moose = awesome. '80s midwest slang maybe?
15:04 <K2> i'm just gonna start making up my own slang
15:05 <krm26> We used to write it m00se to simulate line err0rs
15:05 <amateurhour> K2 now I won't believe any slang you say :)
15:05 <K2> hey amateurhour, that shirt looks really nerb
15:05 <krm26> Because the charset we were using had no shifted characters (6 bit chars, 10 char words), the shift character was its own thing -- o70 -- so the best named character of all time was: 0line Err0r
15:06 <K2> id10T error
15:06 <Umbire> I mean that's how slang works innit
15:06 <K2> baller whack yo
15:06 <Umbire> What gets made up to mean what varies regionally
15:06 <krm26> Man I sometimes miss one's complement 60 bit arithmetic
15:07 <K2> totally nerb man
15:08 <krm26> Nobody else misses negative zero? Just me?
15:08 <krm26> Both less than AND equal to zero?
15:09 <Umbire> Isn't it still a thing?
15:09 <Umbire> I feel like it's still a thing in some corner of mathematics I don't know of
15:09 <amateurhour> ah K2 funny you made up that particular one as that's already existing slang where I'm from
15:09 <krm26> It only matters when you get a lot closer to the iron than most people work these days
15:09 <K2> nerb?
15:10 <K2> gdammit
15:10 <K2> that's so fleebez
15:10 <amateurhour> I'm only joking of course it's not :P
15:10 <amateurhour> gotcha
15:10 <Umbire> lmfao
15:10 <K2> hah
15:11 <krm26> You're glorking my sparz, dood. Nobody spurts the fleebez anynow, sinceways.
15:11 <amateurhour> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2LvQUcwqc
15:12 <K2> nerb
15:14 <krm26> Crap...never know what to genocide any more. Everything I hate is ungenocidable
15:15 <krm26> I'd do black dragons but I haven't eaten them yet, gray dragons but I want the armor still...sea dragons maybe?
15:15 <mobileuser> shocking sphere
15:15 <krm26> I wish
15:16 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) performed her first genocide (master mind flayers), on T:38343
15:16 <mobileuser> is now genocidable
15:16 <mobileuser> new in .7.1
15:17 <krm26> Wait, really? For reals?
15:17 <mobileuser> yup
15:17 <krm26> I don't know how I feel about that
15:18 <K2> dont geno them
15:18 <K2> prob solved :)
15:18 <krm26> I guess I would have preferred a method of totally fooproofing a ring and not being able to genocide spheres
15:18 <krm26> But ok
15:18 <K2> well
15:18 <K2> if you wear non metallic gloves, any worn rings are protected
15:18 <K2> also new to 0.7.1
15:18 <K2> (and its in vanilla too)
15:19 <krm26> Well, that's that, then -- another Dragonbane buff :-)  Keep 'em coming
15:19 <mobileuser> K2 quickly makes Dragonbane metallic...
15:20 <NetSysFire> e?shocking sphere
15:20 <NetSysFire> dammit
15:20 <NetSysFire> @e?shocking sphere
15:20 <Hecubus> shocking sphere (e) | Lvl: 6 | Diff: 8 | Spd: 13 | Res: shock | Confers: shock | MR: 0 | Generates: gehennom dungeons | AC: 4 | Attacks: 4d6 explode shock | Alignment: 0 | Flags: flies, breathless, mindless, infravisible
15:20 <NetSysFire> yup
15:26 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) made her first wish - "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide t-shirt of drain resistance", on T:38686
15:26 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) used a helm to turn lawful, on T:742
15:26 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) used a helm to turn lawful, on T:744
15:28 <NetSysFire> can you wish for a specific motif on a hawaiian shirt?
15:30 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] SeamusMcRed (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 1468 points, T:2164, killed by a piranha
15:30 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) wished for "blessed greased fixed +3 dragonhide robe", on T:38699
15:31 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) wished for "blessed fixed +3 oilskin cloth elven helm", on T:38703
15:34 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) made her first artifact wish - "blessed greased ring of p'hul", on T:38836
15:34 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
15:37 <krm26> Ok, now I'm at the point where I kind of wish I could give this char away to someone who won't get bored in the endgame and kill themselves :-)
15:37 <amateurhour> oooh memememe
15:37 <amateurhour> I wouldn't kill myself I'd just die :^)
15:38 <VaderFLAG> Wish avalanche
15:39 <krm26> First 0:3 /ofWishing I've seen in over a year
15:39 <krm26> Good thing, too, I was crap-clad
15:43 <Graznop> K2: Does extrinsic shock resistance protect things from shocking spheres? 
15:45 <K2> no
15:45 <K2> that would be too nice
15:45 <krm26> Does anyone else think that cursed invis is too easy for baiting bosses to a prepped stairway? Maybe more of them should be immune like Vecna
15:46 <Umbire> I mean maybe? But there's not many other forms of baiting that I'd immediately think of sans mind-blasting or earthquake
15:47 <krm26> Maybe there's just a resist chance, so that you might need a bunch of them sometimes
15:47 <Graznop> Thanks. Thought my metallic gauntlets of shock resistance were too good to be true!
15:47 <Umbire> lol
15:47 <Umbire> ...actually cursed magic whistle effect would be fairly unorthodox
15:47 <Umbire> Not really much more difficult though
15:47 <Umbire> If at all
15:48 <Umbire> What else would make enough noise or trigger awareness...
15:48 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) destroyed AntiVirus' ghost, the former Thaumaturge, on T:2419
15:49 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Tou Gno Fem Neu) performed her first genocide (shocking spheres), on T:24371
15:49 <krm26> "ring of enlightenment" -- +1 int, +1 wis, Ctrl-X also shows your "standard chow" resist %s (cold, fire, shock, poison, sleep)
15:50 <Umbire> Weren't you just saying other stuff shouldn't be too powerful?
15:51 <Umbire> That lefit sounds more like an artifact
15:51 <Umbire> legit*
15:51 <krm26> Yeah, it is a bad suggestion on even a second's reflection, makes the wand useless
15:51 <Umbire> Just have K2 steal Musa-Shiya :3
15:51 <krm26> That's why I put all my suggestions in this channel where they aren't tracked
15:54 <K2> Status of the dwarven soldier (male, chaotic):  Level 9  HP 32(46)  AC 0, solidifying.  The dwarven soldier's limbs have turned to stone.  In what direction? 3 (<--- casting stone to flesh at soldier)  The dwarven soldier seems limber!  The dwarven soldier pummels you!
15:54 <K2> that works
15:54 <Umbire> Yaty
15:54 <Umbire> -t
15:55 -!- mobileuser has joined #evilhack
15:55 <Umbire> wb
15:57 <mobileuser> evilhack has Gjallar which will wake everyone
15:59 <krm26> Gjallar should wake everyone everywhere -- all monsters generated awake/aggravated on all new levels too
15:59 <krm26> That'll larn em
16:00 <VaderFLAG> Geez that dwarven soldier sure was ungrateful
16:01 <krm26> Well crap -- Program in disorder! K2? Just walking in the big room after perfecting my character with wishes
16:01 <Umbire> Did it crash after the disorder?
16:01 <Umbire> And did you already generate that floor?
16:01 <krm26> shop resident not shopkeeper? (rmno=3, rtype-23, mnum=0, "anonymous")
16:01 <K2> hrm
16:01 <Umbire> Huh.
16:01 <krm26> Yup, old floor, just walking around
16:02 <K2> big room?
16:02 <krm26> Let me save and exit
16:02 <rebatela> graznop: You can wield things like rings and read confused enchant weapon to foo proof (not just rings, but like wands or say bag of holding). I don't know if it totally protects against spheres 
16:02 <K2> there's no shop in the big room
16:02 <krm26> Yup, there is no shop.
16:02 <rebatela> also they are genocideable now :) 
16:02 <krm26> I took the stairs, used _ to move to the next stairs, and blammo
16:02 <Umbire> Very weird
16:03 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) performed his first genocide (disenchanters), on T:34047
16:03 <krm26> Punishment for a good character
16:03 <krm26> Nervous about seeing if it loads
16:03 <krm26> But it does
16:03 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) used a helm to turn lawful, on T:3308
16:03 <Not> [EvilHack] k21971 pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±3] https://git.io/JzVei
16:03 <Not> [EvilHack] k21971 57e3569 - Casting stone to flesh at a monster in the process of being stoned will cure it.
16:03 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Law) eschewed atheism, by dropping a runed dagger named Sting on an altar, on T:3313
16:04 <krm26> I got that shopkeeper alert every step I took on the level
16:04 <K2> still getting it?
16:04 <amateurhour> I think it won't crash or anything, it'll just spam it a lot
16:04 <krm26> Nope, seems ok
16:04 <Umbire> Was it doing this the last times you were on that floor?
16:04 <krm26> Nope
16:04 <krm26> No issues in the current game
16:05 <K2> is there a shop keeper there? somehow got transported there?
16:05 <krm26> Nope
16:05 <K2> teleported or fell through a hole?
16:05 <K2> hmm
16:05 <krm26> Nope
16:05 <krm26> There's a coaligned unicorn and nothing else but some garbage on the floor (lava big room)
16:05 <K2> do you happen to see a generic orc or giant, nymph? etc
16:06 <krm26> Not even any nymphs, although I thought there were one or two sleeping off at the water's edge last time I was here...don't really recall tho
16:06 <amateurhour> rtype 23 is potion shop
16:06 <krm26> I do have a potion shop
16:07 <K2> https://www.hardfought.org/xlogfiles/evilhack/paniclog
16:07 <krm26> On the previous level
16:07 <K2> first ever paniclog entry for 0.7.1 heh
16:07 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una) used a helm to turn lawful, on T:3513
16:07 <amateurhour> maybe the game tried making a room within the big room at some point? 
16:07 <krm26> I've been through the level a BUNCH before now with no issues
16:07 <amateurhour> and it failed but left the room number
16:08 <krm26> Lemme go back to the potion shop level and see what happens
16:08 <krm26> Well that fucked me
16:08 <amateurhour> uh oh
16:08 <krm26> Went back up, looked normal, took stairs off the potion shop level, kicked out
16:08 <krm26> No output at all
16:08 <K2> 'took stairs off the potion shop level' <--- what does that mean?
16:09 <K2> oh nm
16:09 <krm26> Level 10, potion shop (empty but with nymph owner) and my stasah
16:09 <krm26> Level 11, big level below
16:09 <krm26> Went up from 11 to 10, walked around, no errors messages; took stairs back to 11, EXIT
16:09 <K2> for a second i thought the downstairs was in the shop
16:09 <K2> welp you should be able to autorecover
16:09 <K2> i have a copy of your backup save
16:10 <K2> i'll play with it
16:10 <amateurhour> check the coredump as well K2
16:10 <krm26> Recovered fine
16:10 <amateurhour> this was a segfault on something with the shopkeeper it seems
16:10 <K2> coredump is junk
16:10 <K2> stack trace:
16:10 <krm26> Yup, when I go back down I get the error messages again.
16:10 <K2>                 Stack trace of thread 11091:
16:10 <K2>                 #0  0x00007f555488be97 n/a (/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6)
16:10 <K2>                 #1  0x000055f050020602 panictrace_handler (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #2  0x00007f555488bf20 n/a (/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6)
16:10 <K2>                 #3  0x000055f05000d28f recalc_mapseen (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #4  0x000055f0502895cd vision_recalc (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #5  0x000055f04ffbf898 docrt (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #6  0x000055f04ffc97c0 goto_level (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #7  0x000055f050009d6e next_level (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #8  0x000055f04ffc80f7 dodown (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #9  0x000055f04ff99f3c rhack (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #10 0x000055f04ff4cbdd moveloop (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #11 0x000055f0502c7ef8 main (evilhack-20210921-105201)
16:10 <K2>                 #12 0x00007f555486eb97 n/a (/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6)
16:11 <krm26> shopkeeper career change?
16:11 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] SeamusMcRed (Pri Ith Mal Cha), 1606 points, T:2222, killed by a giant mimic
16:11 <K2> i wonder if this has something to do with racial shopkeepers
16:11 <amateurhour> https://0x0.st/-YXZ.txt
16:11 <krm26> Will I crash again going back up and down? I assume I will
16:11 <K2> i dont know
16:12 <amateurhour> yeah I think you'll crash going up
16:12 <krm26> Yes, so after going to 11, every move I get the disorder message
16:12 <amateurhour> it's like the shopkeeper on dlvl 10 got moved to dlvl 11 somehow
16:12 <krm26> Back on 10, no more disorder message
16:12 <krm26> I still see the shopkeeper here on 10
16:12 <rebatela> I thought you were joking with "shopkeeper career change" but it actually says that !
16:12 <amateurhour> huh?
16:13 <amateurhour> what do you mean the coredump is junk btw K2? can you check info about the shopkeeper?
16:14 <K2> Core was generated by `/evilhack-0.7.1/evilhack -u krm26'.
16:14 <K2> Program terminated with signal SIGABRT, Aborted.
16:14 <K2> #0  0x00007f555488be97 in __bsd_signal (sig=<optimized out>, handler=<optimized out>) at ../sysdeps/posix/signal.c:47
16:14 <K2> 47      ../sysdeps/posix/signal.c: No such file or directory.
16:14 <K2> (gdb) bt
16:14 <K2> #0  0x00007f555488be97 in __bsd_signal (sig=<optimized out>, handler=<optimized out>) at ../sysdeps/posix/signal.c:47
16:14 <K2> #1  0x0000000000000000 in ?? ()
16:14 <K2> (gdb)
16:14 <K2> junk
16:14 <amateurhour> man we gotta figure out how it's so busted like that
16:14 <K2> i'm redoing hdf-us and eu soon
16:14 <K2> from scratch
16:15 <mobileuser> I can pound monsters through iron bars! \o/
16:15 <krm26> Interestigly I've been through that level a lot since clearing out the store and with no further interactions with the shopkeeper
16:15 <amateurhour> c r a c k e d
16:15 <krm26> So maybe something happened with the shopkeeper and a monster spawn
16:16 <K2> shop resident not shopkeeper? (rmno=3, rtype=23, mnum=0, "anonymous")--More--
16:17 <K2> as I leave lvl 10 to go back down to big room
16:18 <K2> qt you here?
16:19 <K2> i may be on to something
16:19 <qt> no im not
16:19 <K2> need his racial monsters expertise
16:19 <K2> hi not-qt
16:19 <qt> im on a conference call so i cant talk right now but i'll let you know when i'm free
16:19 <K2> ok i'll post my ? here
16:19 <amateurhour> ?
16:19 <amateurhour> sniped, gottem
16:20 <K2> in shk.c in shop_keeper() should any of the has_eshk(shkp) and/or ESHK(shkp)-> bits been changed for racial monster handling?
16:22 <qt> no, shouldn't have. i will have a look when i get off this call though
16:22 <K2> thanks
16:35 <mobileuser> I have not yet broken stethoscopeless conduct
16:37 <VaderFLAG> Yes that's another good conduct to add
16:37 <qt> was the impossible happening on the level with a shop, or the level under that level?
16:37 <qt> or both?
16:37 <K2> both
16:38 <K2> i grabbed a copy of the save and played with it
16:38 <Umbire> It was on the level with a shop but somehow followed him down?
16:38 <K2> when I went upstairs from the big room to the level above, it happened
16:38 <K2> going back down, kept happening
16:38 <K2> with every move
16:38 <K2> shopkeeper is a nymph
16:38 <K2> would you like the save qt?
16:39 <Umbire> ...is it somehow teleportitis related?
16:39 <Umbire> shot in the dark
16:39 <qt> K2: i won't be able to use it since various compilation flags will be different
16:39 <qt> i've tried to figure out loading a safe from hdf before and i couldn't get it working
16:39 <qt> s/safe/save
16:40 <K2> hrm
16:40 <K2> maybe if you recompiled using hints/linux-debug
16:40 <K2> and changing install paths of course
16:40 <qt> will you add a breakpoint on shop_keeper while the error is happening and check some things for me
16:40 <K2> yeah
16:40 <K2> also, Umbire's question is actually a good one
16:41 <K2> lol oh shit
16:41 <qt> a nymph shopkeeper shouldn't teleport
16:41 <K2> placeholder "nymph" used for shopkeepers has the M1_TPORT flag
16:42 <qt> it shouldn't matter
16:42 <Umbire> it shouldn't
16:42 <Umbire> But one has to wonder
16:42 <qt> monster teleportation happens when can_teleport(mtmp->data) is true
16:42 <Umbire> And it's sounding like it did, though iunno exactly how she got from that to "following you down"
16:42 <qt> with erac mtmp->data is "shopkeeper" not "nymph"
16:43 <K2> 'will you add a breakpoint on shop_keeper' how do that?
16:43 <qt> i think just 'break shop_keeper' in the gdb console thing
16:43 <K2> ok
16:43 <qt> but I use lldb so I'm just getting that from the internet, not certain
16:43 <K2> i hadnt run it in gdb yet
16:47 <qt> i think maybe the way K2 used to do racial shopkeepers, a shopkeeper nymph could teleport... i'm not sure why that never happened
16:47 <K2> correction. in big room, go up to lvl 10, when i go back down is when the program in disorder starts
16:47 <K2> so it just happened
16:47 <K2> what do you want me to check
16:48 <K2> hrm brb work stuff
16:48 <qt> damn you K2
16:49 <qt> did it break on shop_keeper?
16:51 <K2> back
16:51 <K2> no i forgot to add the break
16:51 <K2> i manually did it
16:52 <qt> well can you add the break and then continue it
16:52 <K2> ok added
16:52 <K2> resuming
16:52 <qt> i want to know what 'rmno' it's getting passed
16:52 <rebatela> oh sweet rodney dropped a wand of death 
16:53 <K2> ok so that worked
16:53 <K2> Program in disorder!  (Saving and reloading may fix this problem.)--More--
16:53 <K2> Breakpoint 1, shop_keeper (rmno=3 '\003') at shk.c:846
16:53 <K2> 846     {
16:53 <K2> (gdb)
16:53 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Cronos (Bar Dwa Mal Neu) acquired the luckstone from Mines' End, on T:18269
16:53 <K2> guide me oh shirt maker
16:53 <rebatela> oh hell yeah 0:8 
16:53 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] SeamusMcRed (Wiz Ith Mal Cha), 977 points, T:2574, killed by a bolt of cold
16:54 <qt> K2:  will you do 'p *g.rooms'
16:54 <K2> you mean *rooms
16:54 <qt> oh yeah probably, sorry
16:54 <K2> heh
16:54 <qt> i forgot that changed in 3.7
16:55 <K2> (gdb) p *rooms
16:55 <K2> $1 = {lx = 20 '\024', hx = -1 '\377', ly = 3 '\003', hy = 5 '\005', rtype = 23 '\027', orig_rtype = 23 '\027',
16:55 <K2>   rlit = 1 '\001', needfill = 1 '\001', needjoining = 1 '\001', doorct = 1 '\001', fdoor = 0 '\000',
16:55 <K2>   nsubrooms = 0 '\000', irregular = 0 '\000', sbrooms = {0x0 <repeats 24 times>}, resident = 0x5555559e77e0}
16:55 <K2> (gdb)     
16:56 <qt> what in the blue blazes is this
16:56 <qt> what about 'p rooms->resident'
16:57 <qt> or rather 'p *rooms->resident'
16:59 <qt> are you in the bigroom right now? or on the level with the shop?
17:00 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) genocided gray dragons, on T:84744
17:01 <K2> (gdb) p rooms->resident· ·································
17:01 <K2> $2 = (struct monst *) 0x5555559e77e0
17:01 <K2> sorry qt was pulled away
17:01 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] Graznop (Tou Gno Fem Neu) killed Aphrodite, on T:25496
17:01 <K2> yes went down into big room
17:02 <qt> p *rooms->resident ?
17:02 <K2> yes
17:02 <K2> i'm in bigroom now
17:02 <qt> will you add the * before it so it gives the value instead of the address?
17:05 <K2> work brb
17:06 <krm26> ...Sounding like I can fix this error in my savegame by killing the shopkeeper? :-)
17:06 <amateurhour> murder is ethical if it's for SCIENCE
17:06 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) genocided shocking spheres, on T:34532
17:10 <NetSysFire> my eeeyyyyees
17:10 <NetSysFire> i look in here and its full of C
17:12 <mobileuser> Instead of Illithids you mean? :-)
17:16 <aosdict> it's not full of C, it's full of gdb, which is worse
17:17 <amateurhour> beward of C monsters
17:17 <amateurhour> beware* sigh
17:18 <Umbire> racism against centaurs
17:18 <Umbire> smh my head
17:21 <aosdict> centaurs are smelly and respectable shopkeepers will charge them more for it
17:21 <krm26> When gdb hit in the 80s it was like a miracle
17:23 <K2> sorry qt
17:24 <K2> i have to re-run it
17:24 <qt> huh i think this is a vanilla bug
17:25 <qt> it's kind of complicated and i can't actually reproduce it, but I think i see what's happening
17:25 <mobileuser> !who
17:26 <Hecubus> mobileuser: [hdf-eu] lacca [evil] Graznop [evil] :: [hdf-us] Cronos [evil] :: [hdf-au] No current players
17:26 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Cronos (Bar Dwa Mal Neu) had Cleaver bestowed upon him by Crom, on T:19822
17:26 <K2> (gdb) p *rooms->resident
17:26 <K2> $1 = {nmon = 0x0, data = 0x5555558f70c0 <mons+37024>, m_id = 2357, mnum = 356, cham = -1, movement = 0,
17:26 <K2>   m_lev = 12 '\f', malign = -15 '\361', mx = 20 '\024', my = 5 '\005', mux = 70 'F', muy = 4 '\004', mtrack = {{
17:26 <K2>       x = 0 '\000', y = 0 '\000'}, {x = 0 '\000', y = 0 '\000'}, {x = 0 '\000', y = 0 '\000'}, {x = 0 '\000',
17:26 <K2>       y = 0 '\000'}}, mhp = 52, mhpmax = 52, mappearance = 0, rider_id = 0, m_ap_type = 0 '\000', mtame = 0 '\000',
17:26 <K2>   mintrinsics = 0, mextrinsics = 0, mspec_used = 0, seen_resistance = 0, female = 1, minvis = 0, invis_blkd = 0,
17:26 <K2>   perminvis = 0, mcan = 0, mburied = 0, mundetected = 0, mcansee = 1, mspeed = 0, permspeed = 0, mrevived = 0,
17:26 <K2>   mcloned = 0, mavenge = 0, mflee = 0, mfleetim = 0, msleeping = 0, mblinded = 0, mstun = 0, mfrozen = 0,
17:26 <K2>   mcanmove = 1, mconf = 0, msick = 0, msickbyu = 0, mdiseased = 0, mdiseabyu = 0, mpeaceful = 1, mtrapped = 0,
17:26 <K2>   mleashed = 0, uexp = 0, isshk = 1, isminion = 0, isgd = 0, ispriest = 0, isqldr = 0, iscerberus = 0, isvecna = 0,
17:26 <K2>   iswiz = 0, wormno = 0, mwither_from_u = 0, mstonebyu = 0, mstone = 0, mwither = 0 '\000', mstrategy = 0,
17:26 <K2>   mtrapseen = -1, mlstmv = 39086, mspare1 = 0, minvent = 0x5555559f3e50, mw = 0x0, misc_worn_check = 4,
17:26 <K2>   weapon_check = 0 '\000', former_rank = '\000' <repeats 24 times>, meating = 0, msummoned = 0, msicktime = 0,
17:26 <K2>   mdiseasetime = 0, mprotection = 0 '\000', mprottime = 0 '\000', mextra = 0x5555559f47b0}
17:26 <amateurhour> mods ban for flood
17:27 <qt> what's *rooms->resident->data K2?
17:28 <K2> $3 = {mname = 0x55555586bf2c "shopkeeper", mlet = 53 '5', mlevel = 13 '\r', mmove = 18 '\022', ac = 0 '\000',
17:28 <K2>   mr = 50 '2', maligntyp = 0 '\000', geno = 512, mattk = {{aatyp = 16 '\020', adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 4 '\004',
17:28 <K2>       damd = 4 '\004'}, {aatyp = 16 '\020', adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 4 '\004', damd = 4 '\004'}, {aatyp = 0 '\000',
17:28 <K2>       adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 0 '\000', damd = 0 '\000'}, {aatyp = 0 '\000', adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 0 '\000',
17:28 <K2>       damd = 0 '\000'}, {aatyp = 0 '\000', adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 0 '\000', damd = 0 '\000'}, {aatyp = 0 '\000',
17:28 <K2>       adtyp = 0 '\000', damn = 0 '\000', damd = 0 '\000'}}, cwt = 1450, cnutrit = 400, msound = 34 '"',
17:28 <K2>   msize = 2 '\002', mresists = 0, mconveys = 0 '\000', mflags1 = 1610743808, mflags2 = 3290431489, mflags3 = 4608,
17:28 <K2>   mflags4 = 0, mhflags = 1, difficulty = 15 '\017', mcolor = 15 '\017'}
17:28 <qt> and this is still in the bigroom?
17:28 <K2> yeah i went back down
17:29 <K2> hmm
17:29 <qt> what is the value of u.urooms[0]?
17:29 <K2> wait a sec
17:30 <K2> what I initally shared i was still above big room, same level as shop
17:30 <K2> i had to cont a few times to be able to go back down
17:30 <K2> program in disorder still happens
17:30 <K2> (gdb) p *rooms->resident->data
17:30 <K2> Cannot access memory at address 0x0
17:30 <qt> okay that's what I thought
17:30 <qt> what's u.urooms[0]?
17:31 <K2> (gdb) p u.urooms[0]
17:31 <K2> $5 = 0 '\000'
17:31 <K2> currently in big room
17:31 -!- amateurhour has quit [Quit: zzz]
17:31 <K2> i have to leave soon
17:31 <K2> just fyi
17:32 <krm26> Before you leave, do you think I should let that game sit and stew while you guys chase this down?
17:32 <qt> sorry, i meant to ask about u.urooms[3] -- my fault
17:32 <K2> same
17:33 <K2> (gdb) p u.urooms[3]
17:33 <K2> $6 = 0 '\000'
17:33 <qt> hmmm
17:33 <qt> the impossible is happening with every step
17:33 <qt> ?
17:33 <K2> yes
17:33 <K2> so is the breakpoint
17:33 <K2> how do i undo the break
17:34 <qt> 'disable 1' i think
17:34 <K2> yup
17:36 <K2> https://termbin.com/0fgh
17:49 <K2> ok heading home, back soon
17:56 <rebatela> damn mobileuser, you're having a fast game ! 
17:56 <rebatela> (was watching you joust! looks like fun!)
17:58 <rebatela> def want to try knight. I've ascended it in vanilla long time ago but never really did the lance thing 
17:58 <Umbire> Jousting is good if you're good at it
17:58 <Umbire> And have the space for the lanc
17:58 <arahael> Bah. Angry god, and I'm weilding a cursed pick in the early game. I should just quit.
17:58 <Umbire> lance*
17:58 <rebatela> yeah, I feel like a lot of people don't take advantage of it 
17:59 <Umbire> Because lances are fuckin' heavy 
17:59 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) killed the Wizard of Yendor, on T:34796
17:59 <Umbire> And particularly with say, dwarven knights, you're strapped for space as is
18:00 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] mobileuser (Kni Cen Mal Cha) acquired the Book of the Dead, on T:34799
18:00 <rebatela> yeah that's true. Now I remember! I always would drop the lance right off the bat because of the weight!
18:00 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 548 points, T:1324, killed by a bolt of cold
18:00 <rebatela> go go mobileuser
18:00 <arahael> As it turns out, I didnt' give up. :)
18:00 <rebatela> hehe
18:00 <rebatela> well, you wanted to start over... 
18:01 <arahael> Angry god as a chaotic illithid isn't a great start.
18:01 <mobileuser> Centaur has the same carrying capacity as giant
18:01 <rebatela> nice
18:01 <mobileuser> and centaur knight doesn't need to ride to joust
18:02 <rebatela> ahhh that's the other thing 
18:02 <mobileuser> bedtime...
18:02 <rebatela> nite!
18:02 <mobileuser> thx, have fun!
18:02 -!- mobileuser has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
18:02 <rebatela> tx probably about to splat lol 
18:03 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] lacca (Inf Ith Fem Una), 36716 points, T:13833, suffocated by a gelatinous cube, while praying
18:04 <arahael> One thing that frequently surprises me is how easily I just loose my pet. Probably found a trap door.
18:04 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 508 points, T:1125, killed by a giant bat
18:16 <arahael> Curious.  Magical shiny shield.
18:20 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the invisible Wizard of Yendor (5 times), on T:84791
18:21 <NetSysFire> go rebatela
18:21 <rebatela> thanks 
18:21 <rebatela> yeah i don't have the scrolls i usually want (genocide ) 
18:22 <rebatela> should have wished for a marker earlier oh well 
18:26 <K2> hi
18:26 <Hecubus> Hello K2, Welcome to #evilhack
18:26 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) entered the Planes, on T:84886
18:28 <NetSysFire> oooo
18:28 <K2> go rebatela go
18:31 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 947 points, T:1374, killed by a mountain dwarf
18:37 <rebatela> it would be awfully fitting if I take a dip right here, right? ;) 
18:38 <rebatela> blank all my stuff? lol 
18:40 <K2> heh
18:40 <qt> okay K2 I figured out your bug here, it looks like 3.7 already solved this
18:41 <K2> <3 shirt-maker
18:41 <qt> basically there's a list of 'rooms' that contains info about rooms on the level, including shopkeepers. when you leave the level the list is overwritten with the new rooms. but the 'bigroom' doesn't actually have any 'rooms', so it didn't overwrite anything and left the list as it was
18:41 <K2> aaah
18:41 <qt> and so when it looked at the list, it contained the pointer for the old shopkeeper, which now was just some junk
18:42 <qt> 3.7 solves this by zeroing out the list of rooms instead of just relying on the next level to overwrite them
18:42 <qt> i think this will solve it... https://termbin.com/ubr9
18:43 <K2> i wonder if this will help krm26's current game
18:43 <K2> i think it should
18:43 <qt> can you send me a screenshot of the level above the bigroom in krm26's game?
18:43 <K2> yeah
18:43 <K2> one momento
18:43 <qt> i still don't understand why it was looking at the list in the first place if u.urooms[0] was empty
18:46 <K2> https://www.hardfought.org/phpBB3/gallery/image/2603/source
18:46 <K2> the room to the right of the room with the upstairs is the shop
18:46 <qt> are you standing on the downstairs?
18:46 <K2> si
18:46 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Famine, on T:85327
18:49 <qt> well, idk... if you can catch it when it's printing that error and tell me that value of u.urooms[0], u.urooms[1], u.urooms[2], u.urooms[3], and u.urooms[4] that would be helpful. but i think the patch will probably do enough to address it anyway
18:49 <K2> sure, one sec
18:49 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) murdered his faithful woolly mammoth, on T:85376
18:49 <rebatela> sorry woolly 
18:50 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed Pestilence, on T:85402
18:50 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) killed the White Horse, on T:85402
18:50 <rebatela> grand tour d'oh 
18:51 <K2> so the second i go upstairs, breakpoint trips
18:51 <K2> Breakpoint 1, shop_keeper (rmno=3 '\003') at shk.c:846
18:51 <K2> (gdb) p u.urooms[2]
18:51 <K2> $3 = 3 '\003'
18:51 <K2> rest are 0
18:52 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu) put Death down for a little nap, on T:85468
18:52 <rebatela> dammit i teleported deaths corpse by accident
18:54 <Hecubus> [hdf-eu] [evil] rebatela (Mon Hum Mal Neu), 7171872 points, T:85499, ascended
18:54 <Hecubus> https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/r/rebatela/evilhack/dumplog/1631976375.evil.html
18:54 <Umbire> gg
18:54 <K2> congrats!
18:54 <rebatela>   thanks!
18:55 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 75 points, T:959, killed by a small mimic
18:56 <rebatela> yeah umm don't teleport deaths corpse 
18:56 <K2> qt that one-liner did the trick
18:56 <NetSysFire> hmm why?
18:56 <K2> it actually fixes krm26's game
18:56 <rebatela> if you teleport any of the riders corpses they wake up and teleport right next to you ! 
18:56 <NetSysFire> ouch
18:57 <rebatela> it's easy to forget because a lot of times you don't see them. LIke i was trying to teleport his horse and just forgot about him lol 
18:57 <qt> K2: yeah i figured it would
18:57 <K2> NetSysFire that's vanilla behavior fyi
18:57 <Umbire> Can confirm
18:57 <rebatela> yeah.. don't do it in vanilla either 
18:57 <qt> though there's still the deeper mystery of why u.urooms[2] is 3
18:57 <NetSysFire> i never even reached the castle so idk
18:57 <qt> but at least the symptom is fixed
18:57 <K2> yes, thank you
18:57 <K2> what should i label this commit
18:58 <qt> hmm idk, I guess just "Zero out rooms[] in savelev"
18:59 <rebatela> that was a looong game. high score yikes 
19:00 <rebatela> very fun k2... I ran into a few of those antimatter thingys on air plane 
19:00 <K2> good
19:03 <Not> [EvilHack] k21971 pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] https://git.io/JzVZN
19:03 <Not> [EvilHack] k21971 c44452f - Fix: zero out rooms[] in savelev().
19:03 <K2> !who
19:03 <Hecubus> K2: [hdf-eu] No current players :: [hdf-us] Orion [evil] coplate [evil] :: [hdf-au] Arahael [evil]
19:04 <qt> krm26: do you remember if you ever were in a spot where you were standing in 3 rooms at once in this game
19:04 <qt> like this, for example
19:04 <qt> --+-----+--
19:04 <qt> |....|....|
19:04 <qt> |....|....|
19:04 <qt> |....|....|
19:05 <qt> -----@-----
19:05 <qt> |.........|
19:05 <qt> |.........|
19:05 <qt> |.........|
19:05 <qt> -------+---
19:05 <krm26> No, not off-hand, but I could quickly zip through the levels and see if anything rings a bell
19:05 <K2> krm26 you can safely load your game
19:06 <krm26> Gimme a few minutes to look around
19:06 <qt> that would be helpful if you don't mind, but honestly it's not that important and your bug is fixed
19:06 <krm26> Now that's service!
19:06 <qt> it'd really just be to sate my curiosity lol
19:11 <krm26> Nope, only three split rooms, all 2 ways, and two of them just with iron bars
19:18 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] coplate (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 7282 points, T:8104, poisoned by an orcish arrow
19:18 <qt> hmm, thanks for looking!
19:19 <krm26> I did spend a LOT of time in the one normally double-split room (my stash room on 10, the same room with the nymph shop causing the problem)
19:19 <krm26> Altar-camping, so tons of turns
19:24 <qt> well, a three-way split room can definitely cause something like your situation
19:24 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Orion (Inf Ith Mal Una) had a wooden thonged club entrusted to him by Moloch, on T:138082
19:24 <krm26> Some kinda zombie room structure that is never cleaned up?
19:25 <qt> it was a combination of two things
19:25 <qt> first of all, rooms[] didn't get cleaned up so had old info
19:26 <krm26> That sounds like a cross-version issue
19:26 <qt> yeah but it was fixed in 3.7 already as it turns out
19:27 <qt> and then the reason it was even looking at rooms[] is that u.urooms was like this "\0\0\x03\0\0" -- it normally contains all the rooms you're currently in, and is treated as a null-terminated string in most cases.
19:28 <qt> so it seems like at one point it was something like "\x01\x02\x03\0\0", then you stepped out and Strcat(u.urooms, 1) made it into "\x01\0\x03\0\0", then it was "zeroed out" by setting u.urooms[0] = 0
19:28 <qt> but the 3 in u.urooms[2] remained because of the way it gets 'reset'
19:28 <qt> basically it should always be treated as a null-terminated string but in one place in dungeon.c it keeps on chugging past the \0, so it actually used the 3 even though it was after a \0
19:29 <qt> so basically i think it should not do that in dungeon.c
19:29 <krm26> But everything was cool the first n times through there, so something about my behavior resulted in improper cleanup when changing levels?
19:29 <krm26> Everything in that area was happening through normal stair use
19:30 <krm26> Off topic, Dirge seems to be even more efficient at cutting a swathe through Gehennom than Sunsword, I'm surprised
19:30 <qt> not sure, it's probably because that 3 wasn't in urooms[2] until recently
19:31 <qt> that'd be my guess
19:31 <qt> not sure how it got there if you never stood in a 3-way junction of rooms though
19:31 <krm26> Hmm. Could it have been part of the Castle?
19:32 <krm26> Had just come up from clearing it, and lots weird rooms on that level
19:32 <qt> that definitely sounds possible
19:32 <krm26> OR WAIT, on the first level of the knight quest there is an antechamber exactly like that
19:32 <krm26> -++-
19:32 <krm26> +^^+
19:32 <krm26> -++-
19:33 <krm26> And I kicked down all the doors and moved diagonally through it
19:33 <Umbire> The antechamber's always like that
19:33 <krm26> Right
19:33 <Umbire> Which, may or may not be pertinent to the problem
19:33 <qt> i think the 3 rooms would have to be all touching, so it'd have to be like a T-shape of walls or something
19:34 <qt> but I'm not sure.. anyway I think it will be a moot point once that part in dungeon.c starts cutting out once it hits a null in u.urooms
19:34 <krm26> I don't recall if the lava moat castle has a room like that, will check
19:35 <krm26> But I had assumed it had to be a randomly generated level, since it wasn't happening all the time to everyone
19:35 <qt> well, it would only happen when moving from a level with a shop into the big room specifically
19:35 <krm26> Ah, well, then sadly no (and the lava castle does not have a triple room square)
19:35 <krm26> But the game did throw me a magic lamp while I looked
19:35 <qt> so a lot of weird things had to line up for it to happen
19:35 <qt> nice lol
19:36 <qt> maybe it could have been a special room that a dwarf knocked down  some of the walls
19:37 <krm26> Again, not on that level -- no dwarf digging. I did have a level with some honey badgers going crazy but not proximate to that
19:37 <qt> i just got this room to generate and I'm standing on the spot where it'd happen https://0x0.st/-Y8z.png
19:37 <krm26> Yeah, I've seen/been there before
19:38 <krm26> Does it treat walls as owned by adjacent room structures?
19:38 <qt> yeah a wall is counted as "shared" between all the rooms that abut it
19:39 <qt> so a square like this that's next to 3 rooms/subrooms is a spot that would cause something like "\x01\x02\x03\0\0" in u.urooms
19:39 <krm26> Can the rooms with different colored walls (hives etc) exist in those split room setups, or only in a whole room? I don't recall every seeing one in a split room
19:44 <qt> looking at vaults.des it looks like these rooms with subrooms are marked as invalid for generating hives or whatever
19:44 <qt> though the ones with iron bars in the middle seem like it could be possible
19:45 <krm26> Makes sense, avoids conflict picking wall colors
19:46 <qt> i guess the wizard's tower beehive is an example of how it would look, that one has shared walls with other rooms right?
19:48 <krm26> But that is fixed, it can't have, for example, an adjacent nymphorium
19:51 <qt> yeah true
19:51 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] coplate (Pri Hum Fem Neu), 793 points, T:2585, killed by a boiling potion, while praying
19:51 <qt> good point, idk what would happen if there two adjacent special rooms like that
19:51 <K2> 'nymphorium'
19:51 <K2> hah
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19:53 <krm26> Second thing I added to my house after the koi pond
19:55 <krm26> This acid damage from Dirge is brutal
19:58 <krm26> The encyclopedia entry for Dirge is not quite as awesome as the item
20:07 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) defeated the invisible Kathryn the Ice Queen, on T:41803
20:11 <krm26> WTF, after this bug, magic lamp, then bonus marker with Hesperides, and now a throne wish
20:11 <krm26> I don't know what's going on
20:11 <qt> k2 threw in a little something extra for you in that patch, as an apology
20:11 <qt> compliments of the house ;)
20:12 <Umbire> lul
20:12 <Umbire> Oh yeah, krm26 reminds me to make my first pull requests soon
20:13 <Umbire> I'm the exact type of nerd who'd wanna spruce up the encyclopedia
20:13 <krm26> I have no clue what to wish for
20:14 <krm26> Maybe an artifact I won't get
20:15 <Umbire> What's the kit
20:15 <Umbire> Resistances to boot
20:16 <krm26> oilskin hat, dex gauntlets, dragonhide robe, dragonhide shirt of drain resistance, whatever dragonscale I want, Ring of phul, magic mirror, whatever amulet I feel like, dirge, katana
20:16 <krm26> I have yet to seriously altar camp for another weapon and dragonbane
20:16 <krm26> And have two magic lamps and a /oWishing 1:3
20:17 <krm26> Think of going for the Key
20:17 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) wished for "blessed greased master key of thievery", on T:41861
20:17 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) killed the invisible Master of Thieves, on T:41863
20:17 <krm26> Unbelievable
20:17 <krm26> This run is definitely gonna tank
20:18 <Umbire> I'd personally go for black unless you lack MR
20:19 <Umbire> Which, Ring of P'Hul right?
20:19 <krm26> Yup
20:19 <krm26> I usually prefer to eat for my disintegration resistance
20:19 <krm26> If all else is equal gold is nice so I don't need a lamp, especially with innate jump
20:19 <krm26> Or Silver for stolen mirror backup
20:20 <krm26> But I'm probably going with blue for speed since I'm wearing an oilskin hat
20:20 <Umbire> I'm feeling the silver play
20:20 <Umbire> Ah
20:22 <krm26> It is so cheat to use Kathryn's priest to buy all your protection, have the pegasus kill them, and then leave to respend that money
20:30 <krm26> K2: Shouldn't acid identify itself when you wield it and use it to eat through iron bars?
20:45 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) wished for "blessed greased +3 frost brand", on T:42567
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20:45 <krm26> Well, can't have everything
20:49 <krm26> Should have wished for greased fixed +3 polished spiked barding of drain resistance
21:25 <rebatela> I lost my protection from praying too early after killing quest leader.. So I killed the minetown temple priest, then my own temple priest in the dungeon (didn't matter because I had just lost all the protection), then donated to the ice queen priest, killed him, then took ALL the gold and donated to VotD 
21:26 <rebatela> it was like 120,000 i think. But it was enough to get me back where i was at xl 30 without having to drain 
21:27 <rebatela> you get the spellbooks from killing temple priests too, which I usually polypile 
21:28 <rebatela> it actually ended up working out 
21:33 <krm26> I'm at that awful point of the game where your character has just entered Gehennom and is perfect, so everything from here on is attrition and decay
21:33 <krm26> My OCD wants me to just bronze the character and move on to the next
21:40 <bouquet_> kno dat
21:44 <bouquet_> the wiki says centaur can be knights or am I misreading that?  I don't seem to have that option.
21:44 <qt> they can in the new version
21:45 <qt> did you select alignment before race? they can only be chaotic knights
21:45 <krm26> I'm a centaur knight right now
21:45 <Umbire> Or neutral if you're krm26 
21:45 <Umbire> :3
21:47 <Umbire> That was honestly still a great ascension, how it happened was just...
21:47 <Umbire> Really funny
21:48 <rebatela> yeah... I know he did it by mistake but converting to neutral as a knight is actually a great strategy (even in vanilla) 
21:49 <Umbire> ?
21:51 <bouquet_> I'm wizmode testing so I might be a little behind
21:51 <rebatela> it was vaderflag who did that, btw. But yeah people do it in vanilla so you can wish for eota 
21:52 <rebatela> there's even a neutral altar IN the knight quest 
21:53 <Umbire> News to me
21:53 <Umbire> But if the caster memes are THAT tempting then hey ho
21:53 <rebatela> then you can cast magic missile with the mirror/knight benefits and the PW gain of the eye... 
21:54 <rebatela> i remember reading about it in old spoilers (pre-wiki) 
21:55 <rebatela> hell pre-web. there were ftp sites with text files 
21:57 <rebatela> i kinda want to do it now actually. centaur knight looks super fun regardless. Like mobileuser was saying you can joust without a mount 
21:57 <qt> uhhh K2 we gotta bug here
21:57 <qt> this is not a drill
21:57 <qt> putting something in an ice box instantly makes it 'rotted' lol
21:57 <krm26> Putting it in? I thought it was taking it out that did it
21:57 <rebatela> what happened to my cockatrice eggs!?!?
21:57 <qt> yeah taking it out
21:58 <qt> how could this happen to me, I can't even eat any of these delicious corpses
21:59 <qt> confused about why that's happening since "rotten" should be oeroded and "norevive" should be oeroded2...
21:59 <qt> brb
22:01 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 6312 points, T:3378, killed by a giant spider, while praying
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22:04 <Umbire> Oh this sounds like some proper dogshit
22:12 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) killed Cerberus, on T:44319
22:15 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) entered Gehennom, on T:44330
22:16 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 1740 points, T:2049, killed by a dwarf lady
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22:24 -!- epinephrine has quit [Changing host]
22:24 -!- epinephrine has joined #evilhack
22:27 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 414 points, T:1478, zombified by a gnome zombie
22:32 -!- qt has joined #evilhack
22:34 <qt> K2: the "rotted" food from the ice box is not actually rotten, it's just getting "rotten" added to the name by add_erosion_words
22:34 <qt> or "rotted" rather
22:35 <Umbire> Even if it's only been out a couple of turns?
22:35 <qt> you need something like this I guess https://termbin.com/tsxj8
22:36 <qt> it's because any corpse in an ice box gets the "norevive" flag added to it, so that a troll corpse that's been in an ice box won't revive
22:36 <qt> but "norevive" is actually just another name for "oeroded2", since that's not used for food
22:36 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha) chose a runed dagger to be named "Sting", on T:1848
22:36 <qt> and oeroded2 is "rotted" for leather armor
22:36 <qt> so it's getting "rotted" added to its name because it has the norevive flag set
22:37 <qt> it's not actually rotten or anything, just being misnamed by add_erosion_words
22:37 <arahael> Oh, wow, naming sting brings up elves.
22:40 <Umbire> Feel like you already encountered this previously.
22:41 <krm26> Awww, the run was going so well, randomly gated Yeenoghu I'm not prepared for
22:42 <qt> your run: Yee-- no :( ugh
22:42 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) killed Yeenoghu, on T:45165
22:43 <krm26> Nevermind
22:44 <qt> your run: no, ugh... yeeeeeeahhhhh
22:45 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 1114 points, T:2092, killed by a giant mimic
22:45 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha), 3019 points, T:4039, killed by a purple worm
22:45 <bouquet_> purple worm on dlvl2...
22:46 <bouquet_> must have been the rare summon by a shrieker
22:46 <Umbire> Oh yeah, that's still coded in
22:46 <krm26> OUCH
22:46 <krm26> That's a fun death
22:46 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Orion (Inf Ith Mal Una) made his first wish - "cursed +2 dragonhide t-shirt of drain resistance", on T:140858
22:48 -!- epinephrine has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:49 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Orion (Inf Ith Mal Una) wished for "cursed +2 mithril helm of brilliance", on T:140886
22:49 -!- epinephrine has joined #evilhack
22:50 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] Orion (Inf Ith Mal Una) wished for "uncursed magic marker", on T:140890
22:57 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] krm26 (Kni Cen Fem Cha) destroyed Kas, on T:45366
23:14 <krm26> Soooo mannnny liccccheeessss
23:15 <qt> are you sure you didn't mean to say lichens, considering how slow your speech appears to be
23:15 <krm26> OH OH OH YANI: arch-lichen
23:15 <krm26> Teleports, teleports away, curses, grabs, slows
23:17 <Umbire> They did that years ago
23:17 <Umbire> Already a patch and everything
23:17 <krm26> No way
23:17 <Umbire> See for yourself
23:18 <Hecubus> [hdf-au] [evil] Arahael (Wiz Ith Fem Cha), 1339 points, T:7254, killed by a rothe, while fainted from lack of food
23:24 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha) rejected atheism by offering a hill orc corpse on an altar of Moloch, on T:4816
23:30 <krm26> Hmm, I wonder if Sword of Kas damage beats my default Dirge/Katana, even at triple vs Vecna
23:35 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha) had Magicbane bestowed upon her by Anhur, on T:5670
23:52 <Hecubus> [hdf-us] [evil] bouquet (Wiz Hum Fem Cha) had a magical cyan spellbook given to her by Anhur, on T:6861
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